Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-22-2018, 06:17 PM   #1
Member
 
City: Antalya
Country: Turkey
Vessel Name: Möbius
Vessel Model: Custom Expedition Passagemaker under build
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 19
New Build - 24m aluminum passagemaker

I posted here on this forum on August 11, 2016 in a post titled Switching from Sail Cruising to Power Passagemaker, and I asked if anyone knew of boatyards, preferably in Turkey, where they did good aluminum work.

By coincidence, a Turkish boatbuilder happened to read that post several weeks later at the same time my husband was in Antalya meeting with builders in the Free Zone. Baris Dinc of Naval Yachts emailed me, I put him in touch with Wayne, and now, some 20 months later, we have just started to build our boat with the builder we found thanks to the Trawler Forum.

We have moved to Turkey where we expect to live for the next several years. We are also blogging about the build of this new boat, and if you are interested in following along, the blog is at http://mobius.world. Slowly, we will be adding posts to fill in the history of how and why we decided to build our own long, slender, and efficient powerboat, and about some of the unique decisions we made along the way, such as choosing a single engine, and a unique one at that. Hint: it's a Gardner.

Wayne and I hope to get to know folks here better through your comments.

Wayne and Christine
M/V Möbius
__________________
Advertisement

ChristineKling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2018, 08:17 PM   #2
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Country: Australia
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,538
Cool and I hope it all goes well.
Gardner's are a great engine but not common.
I guess you have thought of parts and service in remote locations away from your Gardner guy?

Don't get me wrong, I like them, i wanted one,our sister ship has one in her as do most boats i lust for but I have since been convinced that something more common with easy part availability was better for the cruiser planning on being farther afield.
__________________

Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2018, 09:00 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
City: New York
Country: USA
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 234
Will follow..
Genecop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2018, 07:46 AM   #4
Member
 
City: Antalya, Turkey
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: s/v Learnativity
Vessel Model: Bruce Roberts 52' cutter
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 20
Gardner is Goldilocks for us

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Cool and I hope it all goes well.
Gardner's are a great engine but not common.
I guess you have thought of parts and service in remote locations away from your Gardner guy?

Don't get me wrong, I like them, i wanted one,our sister ship has one in her as do most boats i lust for but I have since been convinced that something more common with easy part availability was better for the cruiser planning on being farther afield.
Ahoy Simi! Thanks for the good wishes, I'm sure we will need them!

We had similar concerns as you about parts availability if we went with a Gardner but came to be completely confident this would not be a problem and that a Gardner 6LXB would be the just right engine for our new boat Möbius. As you likely know while whole new Gardner engines have not been made new since 1995, the Gardner company continues as Gardner Marine Diesel in Canterbury Kent England, and they make or stock pretty much every part there is for most Gardners.

We have gotten to know Michael Harrison who has taken over the business from his father who in turn worked most of his life for the original Gardner and Sons company. Michael was able to find us a lovely 6LXB out of tug in the Thames that was repowering with an 8LXB and I have gotten to know Michael and his staff very well on my several visits there and working with him for the restoration I am now doing.

About the only parts which are not currently being made new are things like the large castings of crankcase and cylinder blocks, heads and the crankshaft and they buy engines all the time to add to their considerable stock of used Gardners of all sizes and vintage so even these parts are available. Otherwise everything from pistons, rings, manifolds, pumps, gaskets, valves, etc. are all being made new. Michael and his father cleverly bought up all the inventory and much of the machinery from the original Gardner factory and have also outsourced some manufacturing of Gardner originals to other companies so they are able to provide pretty much anything we might need.

I am in the process of doing a complete restoration of our 6LXB to "as new" condition with new cylinder liners, pistons, rings, bearings, etc. and Michael was able to provide this and ship them to me promptly. Having spent some time with Michael on several visits to his facility I can not say enough good things about him and the company.

Our launch date is likely about 2 years away as we are just beginning construction of the hull now, and before we set sail I will order pretty much a full rebuild set of parts from Michael to have onboard just in case we should ever need any of them. As Christine often tells others she has come to be quite fine living on a floating parts department.

We are very much of the "belts and suspenders" crowd as we spend most of our time anchored alone in the most remote bays we can find around the world and far from the availability of parts and services of any kind. So in addition to spares of most every system on the boat, I also have a well equipped workshop that has a reasonable degree of machining and welding capability which enables me to come up with a fix for pretty much any situation that comes along and we have been able to get ourselves out of some challenging situation over the years in our previous boats. The fact that almost every single part on a Gardner was hand built within their factory was a big part of the appeal of the Gardner to me as it means if I don’t have a part I can likely make one.

Two other factors initially drove us to look for alternatives to modern diesels. One is the growing requirement for DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) and given our scenario of mostly being in extremely remote parts of the world, we would be hard pressed to find DEF most of the time and would also need additional tanks to store the DEF. DEF is injected at about a 50:1 ratio which doesn’t sound like much but we carry 14k liters of diesel so we would need to have 280 liters of DEF onboard as well. And DEF has a shorter shelf life, less than a year, so we would need to find new supplies more frequently than we likely fuel up. The other and even more troubling factor was that several of the black box components of modern Tier III and IV engines including the main ECU (Engine Control Unit) are not possible to buy and carry on board. In our discussions with the folks at John Deer, CAT and Cummins they explained that due to current laws the only way they are able to provide us with a replacement ECU or several other such electronic engine boxes, is for us to ship them the failed part and then they take the log of information from this old part, program that into the new part and ship it to us. All very possible for those cruising close to major population centers but completely untenable for us. And furthermore there are very limited workarounds when one of these parts or sensors fail while we are at sea to keep the engine running even though it is quite capable of doing so. Hence began our search for alternative engines which led us to Gardner.

Even were it not for these requirements of modern diesels, I think we would still go to sea with a Gardner. One is reliability of such a simple and seriously under stressed engine. I don’t know what the exact difference is of the count of total moving parts between our Gardner and the JD6068 we would have gone with, but I’d guess it might be as much as 50% less. Our 6LXB is naturally aspirated (no turbo), no electronics whatsoever, the only electrical components at all are the 24v starter and alternator and every system is so rock solid and simple compared to modern engines we think we will have much higher reliability which is critical to our well being. The second key factor for us in engine efficiency. In my research I have come to understand that still to this day these later year Gardners like the LXB’s have amongst the highest thermal efficiency of any mass produced diesel engine. Some of the really gigantic engines producing thousands of HP can achieve a bit more but our Gardner 6LXB runs just a hair over 40% thermal efficiency and I’ve got the actual dyno test paper from Gardner to prove it! 

My personal sense is that in the valiant and wise efforts to reduce emissions, which I applaud and appreciate, we have lost sight of the forest for the trees. The focus seems to be more on reducing emissions than on improving fuel efficiency for example and I read conflicting reports on whether these tiers are producing less emissions but also less efficiency.

Don’t get me wrong these modern diesel engines are marvels of engineering and they are producing tremendous numbers in things like HP to weight ratios. However for our use case we can handle the weight and it is torque that we really want and I will gladly give up higher HP numbers for higher torque. The 6LXB produces about 740nm of torque which will drive our 1m diameter CPP prop very efficiently I think. In any case we will happily take the 40% thermal fuel sipping efficiency of our Gardner chugging away quite effortlessly for years to come.

Your question was timely as well because Mr. G as we call him, just arrived here yesterday and I’ll soon have a post up on our Möbius blog at http://mobius.world if you’d like to check that out.

Well, WAY more than you wanted and I’m sure you are now sorry you asked, though I thank you for doing so.

Wayne
Whodgins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2018, 08:23 AM   #5
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,067
Whodgins

Sounds like a fun project. Three questions. Have you followed Dashew's builds? Secondly, does the Gardner meet EU emissions compliance regs? Paint the hull or natural Al finish?
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2018, 09:08 AM   #6
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,486
Yea, be careful about EU emissions regs. As I understand it, they can deny you porting a new hull with a non-compliant engine.

Read somewhere a guy somewhere in the Mideast that was planning to take a boat to Italy, found out they would not let him in with his old engines.

Don't know all the details here...
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2018, 10:57 AM   #7
Member
 
City: Antalya, Turkey
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: s/v Learnativity
Vessel Model: Bruce Roberts 52' cutter
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Whodgins

Sounds like a fun project. Three questions. Have you followed Dashew's builds? Secondly, does the Gardner meet EU emissions compliance regs? Paint the hull or natural Al finish?
Hi Sunchaser. Yes we've been having tons of fun throughout this whole process. Lots of challenges and work to be sure but lots of fun and that is a big driver for us doing this; we like it. As quickly as I can with your 3 thoughtful questions:
1. Yes we are very familiar with Steve & Linda Dashew from way back in their and our sailing days and have closely followed their adventurous journey from sail to power. I was fortunate enough to be in Whangarei hiding out of the cyclone season of 2009/10 and was there for the launch of FPB-1 and several visits to Circa afterwards. Circa was also kind enough to welcome Christine and I for an extended visit when we were there again in 2016 and spent an afternoon going all through the 78's and 70 being built then. And we've had the great pleasure of being aboard several FPB-64's we were sharing anchorages. You can also read Christine's account of her meeting with Steve when he first arrived in Fiji on Cochise and we were finishing up the renovation of our boat at Vuda Pt. So yes, the whole Dashew/SetSail/Circa team have been fabulous teachers and inspirations for us.

2. The Gardner does not meet current emissions however we will not be EU registered and so not a problem for us to travel throughout the EU as we have on many non EU flagged boats.

3. We live by the 2 hands rule: if our two hands don't do it, it doesn't get done. So we are very much focused on designing and building the boat for minimal required maintenance and therefore on the exterior; no paint other than anti foul of course, no SS, no wood.

Hope that helps and thanks for your interest.

Wayne
Whodgins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2018, 11:03 AM   #8
Member
 
City: Antalya, Turkey
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: s/v Learnativity
Vessel Model: Bruce Roberts 52' cutter
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 20
We have checked into this and have some past experience and the EU regulations similar to most other countries are that visiting non EU boats are not required to meet any EU requirements. When this would become an issue would be for importing a boat into the EU. As we read and understand it, boats less than 5 years old being imported into the EU are required to meet EU requirements of the year of their manufacture. Boats older than 5 years are exempt. In any case we will not be EU registered and have no plans on ever importing our boat into the EU so we should be good.

Thanks for asking and hope this helps.

Wayne
Whodgins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2018, 02:26 PM   #9
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Country: Australia
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,538
Thanks for the reply
Quote:
The other and even more troubling factor was that several of the black box components of modern Tier III and IV engines including the main ECU (Engine Control Unit) ...............
Totally with you there and wouldn't go a modern diesel myself either.
Having a turbo on our relatively new (about 5000 hour) 1976 design Cummins nta855m was bad enough for us but tis what she had so little say in it.

DEF is a new one to me and I am googling what it is now.(nothing for me to worry about says google)

Have fun with the build
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2018, 06:54 PM   #10
Guru
 
City: NC
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 671
DEF is Diesel Exhaust Fluid and is used to meet Tier 4 diesel emission requirements. The US EPA was going to require Tier 4 engines used in trawler style boats but backed off the requirement the last time I read the EPA regulations.

Gardner is a danged good engine. I saw two sitting on crates in China that were going to be installed in a work boat/ship. They are simple, reliable, fuel efficient and robust engines.

The last time I read the US EPA regulations, new boats that will be US flagged have to use Tier III engines unless they are home built. Home builders can use whatever engine they want.

I have read of people having to show that their boat met emission requirements to travel on some German rivers.

Later,
Dan
dannc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 02:50 AM   #11
Veteran Member
 
sleaper's Avatar
 
City: Auckland
Country: New Zealand
Vessel Name: MV Takapu 2
Vessel Model: ex HMNZS Patrol Craft 94'
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 28
I am so intrigued by the boat design. I am in New Zealand and have seen a few of these boats around - especially during my recent trip to Whangerei.

I look forward to following your journey.
__________________
35-year-old Kiwi living full time on my 94-foot ship.

that crackling sound you can hear... I can hear it too ... hahaha.
sleaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 04:03 AM   #12
Member
 
City: Antalya, Turkey
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: s/v Learnativity
Vessel Model: Bruce Roberts 52' cutter
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleaper View Post
I am so intrigued by the boat design. I am in New Zealand and have seen a few of these boats around - especially during my recent trip to Whangerei.

I look forward to following your journey.
Hi Sleaper. Yes you Kiwi's certainly do appreciate metal boats as do we and we had a great time when we were there last in 2015/16 and enjoyed seeing so many great metal boats. No surprise then that to the best of my knowledge the vast majority of these new style long, low, skinny, fast passagemakers or whatever they will eventually be called, are being made in NZ. The FPB and LRC series would make up the bulk of the still relatively small numbers of such boats and we certainly benefited from all our time in NZ getting hands on with all of the above. No coincidence then that we also ended up choosing Dennis Harjamaa of Artnautica Yachts in Auckland as our designer as he is the brains behind the LRC series.

Thanks for following along with us over on the Mobius.World blog and look forward to your future comments and questions.

Wayne
Whodgins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 04:08 AM   #13
Member
 
City: Antalya, Turkey
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: s/v Learnativity
Vessel Model: Bruce Roberts 52' cutter
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Thanks for the reply


Totally with you there and wouldn't go a modern diesel myself either.
Having a turbo on our relatively new (about 5000 hour) 1976 design Cummins nta855m was bad enough for us but tis what she had so little say in it.

DEF is a new one to me and I am googling what it is now.(nothing for me to worry about says google)

Have fun with the build
We had a 6cyl Cummins in our previous boat that was turbocharged and ran like a charm. I didn't mean to knock turbos, they certainly help squeeze out more thermal efficiency but they are also more moving parts and those turbines really do move! Turbos today are pretty bullet proof having been so long used and evolved but they also put additional stress and strain on the engine and so we are quite happy to forego a few HPs or Watts for less moving parts, a much less stressed engine and still fantastic thermal efficiency.

Proof is always in the pudding though so we'll have to wait a good bit longer till we have real world experience and data to discuss. Thanks for following along the way.

Wayne
Whodgins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 05:42 AM   #14
Guru
 
siestakey's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota,FL/Thomasville,GA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Steppin Stone IV
Vessel Model: Marine Trader Kelly Trawler 46
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,800
Send a message via Skype™ to siestakey
Looking forward to following this one
__________________
Alan
Skype roatan63
siestakey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 10:15 AM   #15
Veteran Member
 
City: PDX
Country: Northwest
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 65
Wayne, can you comment on the long-term upkeep of an aluminum hull? I have been intrigued by some of the older aluminum yachts but potential hull corrosion scares me. How does one deal with corrosion/electrolysis? There is the old wife tale of a copper penny eating through the hull etc. Would love to hear from someone with first hand experience.
gsholz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 12:51 PM   #16
Guru
 
City: Doha
Country: Qatar
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannc View Post
The last time I read the US EPA regulations, new boats that will be US flagged have to use Tier III engines unless they are home built. Home builders can use whatever engine they want.
Dan-

I had conversations with an EPA attorney a year or two ago about the same subject. As I recall, a homebuilt boat is exempt from installing a compliant engine, but not from IMPORTING a compliant engine.

Perhaps I don't recall the conversation correctly, but you may want to confirm that with the EPA if you plan on documenting in America. Let us know what you find out.
makobuilders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 08:47 PM   #17
Guru
 
City: NC
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by makobuilders View Post
Dan-

I had conversations with an EPA attorney a year or two ago about the same subject. As I recall, a homebuilt boat is exempt from installing a compliant engine, but not from IMPORTING a compliant engine.

Perhaps I don't recall the conversation correctly, but you may want to confirm that with the EPA if you plan on documenting in America. Let us know what you find out.
That is an important point and I would think one could no longer import a non compliant engine in the US.

Flip side is that there are mechanical engines in the US that one could use if one could not find a Gardner in the US. In any case, I might be insane enough to want a boat but I don't think I am so totally insane to try to build my own boat in the back yard.

Later,
Dan
dannc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 09:17 PM   #18
TF Site Team
 
Insequent's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Insequent
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 50 Mk I
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsholz View Post
Wayne, can you comment on the long-term upkeep of an aluminum hull? I have been intrigued by some of the older aluminum yachts but potential hull corrosion scares me. How does one deal with corrosion/electrolysis? There is the old wife tale of a copper penny eating through the hull etc. Would love to hear from someone with first hand experience.
I would also like to hear your thoughts on this aspect. In my marina a lady with a catamaran moved away because her aluminium props were being eaten away. Some marina's can be quite 'hot' electrically, and be a huge issue for short zinc anode life, and aluminium hull corrosion.

I believe the Dashew's minimise their time in marina's, unless hard stand, and this is one of the reasons. Marina's don't cater very well for long skinny boats anyway - few berths available, and expensive.
__________________
Brian
Insequent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 10:12 PM   #19
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,067
There are hundreds if not thousands of vessels in the PNW that are Al construction. I've relatives with very large Al vessels, who successfully dock them on both US coasts. Yes they do need some awareness as to avoiding issues. But Al galvanic concerns are easily manageable (as is steel).

Then add to it the many steel hulls with Al topsides. The oldest Al vessel I have personally been on was an approximate 70' DeFever made in the 70s, no reported issues.

Hewes Craft or similar AL offshore fishing 25 - 30 feet vessel anyone? They are like popcorn where we cruise.

As mentioned earlier, a trip to Circa in NZ (I've done it) is a real eye opener regarding Al construction. Or Coastal Craft or King Fisher in BC. So many others to talk with for the truly interested. My favorite though is Wrangell AK where guys build Al fishing boats in their back yards. The finished products can be stunning.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2018, 02:33 AM   #20
Guru
 
City: Doha
Country: Qatar
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannc View Post
Flip side is that there are mechanical engines in the US that one could use if one could not find a Gardner in the US. In any case, I might be insane enough to want a boat but I don't think I am so totally insane to try to build my own boat in the back yard.
Nothing insane about building your own... if you have an extra 10 years to play around with

You made a comment about availability of Gardners. When I was living in New Zealand I'd see them advertised in the local classifieds, sitting in some guy's garage. I almost shipped a rusty one back to America (until I was transfered to the Middle East).

But I think all these discussions about finding the perfect engine are over-rated. There are so many dozens and dozens of good engines that would reliably take you around the world. If your homebuilt boat (or used boat) is fitted with an International tractor motor from Alabama, an Ashok Leyland from India, a Weichai from China, a Doosan from Korea, a Niigata from Japan, a Detroit from WW2, a Cummins from anywhere, etc. etc. etc. they are all good. Just keep the fuel clean and any of them should never stop.

IMO, the availability of local mechanics and spare parts in today's world are overrated, for a cruising boat anyway. A boat that crosses oceans likely has a more dependable engine than a guy whose boat sits at a marina in Ft Lauderdale - because it is used and maintained for dear life!

Hmm, enough of my rantings.
__________________

makobuilders is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
aluminum, gardner, new build, turkey

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012