Net worth....Boat Budget

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We used the first three boats extensively, took great care of them, and sold them for decent money. They "depreciated" (purchase cost minus selling price) a total $17,900 when you add up all three over the 24 years of ownership.

Never heard the 5% of net worth rule. Have heard the 10%/year for maintenance, which might be more accurate during first few years of ownership as a new owner adapts to his/her tastes. But even that varies - I suspect lists such as this forum have more DIY'ers than an average marina in South Florida.

One rule that seems ball-park accurate is supported by MM's post: buy a boat right, keep it maintained, apply reasonable upgrades, and you'll sell it for roughly what you paid for it (minus the interim costs). Since 2008's recession, that rule isn't as consistent as it once was, but for years, seemed to hold fairly well. If you can afford the float (financial, not vessel), it's not a bad use of discretionary money.

Another ball-park rule is that appropriate functional upgrades will increase value by roughly 50% of their cost. For example, adding a bow-thruster or stabilizers.

Highly personalized changes may reduce the value. Examples include over-sized TVs, converting a second head into a laundry room, etc.
 
Passagemaker has an end page editorial that cites a widely held rule of thumb that a person should spend around 5% of their net worth on a boat. The author's main point is that he doesn't agree with that rule of thumb but it still got me thinking.

Seems a lot of discussion is occurring referencing a meaningless out of thin air article that somebody takes issue with.

For sure, if you're going to finance a boat the lending institution will set the terms that are required. Without reading PM. :popcorn:
 
Everyone has their own financial situation and priorities.


I am a believer in "cash flow"--if you have a secure flow of cash then you can finance things and enjoy them sooner rather than saving that flow of cash until you can pay cash down the road.
 
I think the percentage could go up as you have your basics taken care of. Example is that you have your retirement expenses easily covered under the 4% rule. Then you might consider the rest to be part of the boat budget. So for me we have a monthly of about 5K so I need 60K or about 1.5M just for basics. Assuming house is owned and no other planned expenses then boat budget could be some of the excess Let’s say I have 1M excess the maybe 500K boat with 35-50k per year for maintaining and expenses. Own for 10 years with 50% residual value would mean that I was happy with a 750k boat expense out of a 2.5M net worth (30%). However I would have room for a zoom per tent boat budget at a nw of 1.5M.

Barabus - Love your Math. It works for me!
 
I think the percentage could go up as you have your basics taken care of. Example is that you have your retirement expenses easily covered under the 4% rule. Then you might consider the rest to be part of the boat budget. So for me we have a monthly of about 5K so I need 60K or about 1.5M just for basics. Assuming house is owned and no other planned expenses then boat budget could be some of the excess Let’s say I have 1M excess the maybe 500K boat with 35-50k per year for maintaining and expenses. Own for 10 years with 50% residual value would mean that I was happy with a 750k boat expense out of a 2.5M net worth (30%). However I would have room for a zoom per tent boat budget at a nw of 1.5M.

BTW, the last part got spell corrected out... Meant to say zero room for a boat assuming a net worth of $1.5M. These hypotheticals are meant to illustrate how a 0% to 30% of net worth answer can make sense.
 
Thanks for the helpful comments all.

For what its worth I think there is a time to pay cash and a time to finance. When I was younger and had a much greater income I was happy to finance things because it was easy for me to make the payments.

At my current point in life I have a much more limited income but I've got a decent bit of savings. So now I pay cash for everything but only because I can no longer afford the monthly payments! (well, I suppose I could but I'd be paying for them out of savings which doesn't make sense to me).

I've owned 6 or 7 boats before this but they largest was only 26 feet and they were almost exclusively freshwater day boats. I'm more than a little gun shy about committing too much money but at the same time I don't want to economize and end up with an unhappy wife. That is the worst of all outcomes!

Years ago (well before kids) I had just had a really successful deal and used the money to pay cash to build a brand new waterfront house. I had the cash to pay for the house but as construction wrapped up I realized it was going to be a stretch to afford the operating expenses. We sold it before having moved in and it turned out to be a great decision. The new owners came up to celebrate with their friends and on the very first night they owned it, their dog and their friend's dog did almost $40,000 worth of damage to the house!!! It was much too nice of a house for me to live in!!

That's what I keep wondering about some of the boats I look at. I've got the cash for the purchase price but I worry about the cost upkeep. All those wonderful newfangled systems might make for an easy life on the hook but I suspect that are awfully flippen expensive to fix!!
 
BTW, the last part got spell corrected out... Meant to say zero room for a boat assuming a net worth of $1.5M. These hypotheticals are meant to illustrate how a 0% to 30% of net worth answer can make sense.

Of course if your budget requires $60K per year and that is covered by SS and/or pensions that leaves any other funds available for discretionary spending.
 
If one can't save avoided ownership costs by delaying purchase, one can't afford the boat.

Mark, it strikes me as very closed minded to say "you can't afford a boat" if you don't do it like me. Not everyone has your resources or ability or desire to pay others for all necessary work.

I think it's important to point out that your single annual KKMI maintenance bill is higher than my total annual boating budget including my dockage, insurance, repairs, maintenance, and fuel/oil. I know this b/c you have told me the bill total in the past which I will not share here.
 
I am in the don’t finance camp.
I borrowed money for a motorcycle once and hated making payments. I say do your absolute best to only borrow money for things that appreciate (real estate, some times) or make you money (business equipment).
If you are not making interest payments on other things it does not take that long to save for something you want. In the meantime you can play with the things you already have. Besides by the time I am ready to make an informed purchase half the time I have realized I don’t really want it. When you rush to sign the finance papers I think you end up with a lot of payments for things you don’t play with.
 
I am in the don’t finance camp.
I borrowed money for a motorcycle once and hated making payments. I say do your absolute best to only borrow money for things that appreciate (real estate, some times) or make you money (business equipment).
If you are not making interest payments on other things it does not take that long to save for something you want. In the meantime you can play with the things you already have. Besides by the time I am ready to make an informed purchase half the time I have realized I don’t really want it. When you rush to sign the finance papers I think you end up with a lot of payments for things you don’t play with.

An alternate view out of our past history ...
having larger boats when we were in our 30's and 40's allowed us to do many things with both our kids and our parents when they were around and/or alive.
Priceless experiences that we really appreciate having the ability to fulfill.
FWIW - out of our dozen or so past larger boats (not dinghies) we sold all expect for one at a higher price than we bought - a few at rather much larger prices.
 
Sounds like someone trying to generate boat sales.:rolleyes:
 
Financing? Cash? Percent of net worth?


Doesn't it matter if you use the boat 20 times a year? 60 time a year? 6 months as a vacation/winter home? Full time liveaboard? Halfway though your working life? near retirement? fully retired? plenty of and pretty guaranteed cash flow? Living off just meager investments? Combinations of these?



I see comments and theories that make perfect sense for one category and nonsense for another.



Yet another discussion without specifics that goes round and round and will because no one is really wrong....but plenty of info just doesn't apply to all boaters.
 
Financing? Cash? Percent of net worth?


Doesn't it matter if you use the boat 20 times a year? 60 time a year? 6 months as a vacation/winter home? Full time liveaboard? Halfway though your working life? near retirement? fully retired? plenty of and pretty guaranteed cash flow? Living off just meager investments? Combinations of these?



I see comments and theories that make perfect sense for one category and nonsense for another.



Yet another discussion without specifics that goes round and round and will because no one is really wrong....but plenty of info just doesn't apply to all boaters.


:thumb: :thumb:

Well said.
 
One rule that seems ball-park accurate is supported by MM's post: buy a boat right, keep it maintained, apply reasonable upgrades, and you'll sell it for roughly what you paid for it.

There have been multiple comments like this one and I'd say you're right. If you buy a used boat for a really good price, and don't over improve it, then you'll likely sell for little loss or even positive.

But that doesn't hold true for new boats. I built a new boat on a very tight budget and when I sold a few years later I still lost about 20%.
 
Not financing a boat but saving for it over 5 - 10 years in order to pay cash just means you miss out on boating during the wait. Unless you already have one and moving up. But even with that you don't get to enjoy the new boat as long.

I know several people who delayed buying a boat until they had cash. Or delay retirement to buy their first boat or their dream boat. Two died before buying the boat, another one's wife got rheumatoid arthritis and could not get on a boat and two died shortly after buying the boat.

Lifes too short. Buy a smaller boat or finance one and get out on the water. You don't need the best boat or the fastest or the biggest or _____________ boat.

I remember how enjoyable it was saling all day in a 8' El Torro when I was 12 - 14 years old. Simple fun with basics.

You'll live longer, healthier and happy as a boat owner.
 
Mark, it strikes me as very closed minded to say "you can't afford a boat" if you don't do it like me. Not everyone has your resources or ability or desire to pay others for all necessary work.

I think it's important to point out that your single annual KKMI maintenance bill is higher than my total annual boating budget including my dockage, insurance, repairs, maintenance, and fuel/oil. I know this b/c you have told me the bill total in the past which I will not share here.

Al, if one cannot afford the holding costs of owning a boat, one cannot afford to own it. And one can save lots of money by deferring purchase and building up lots of cash. That's how I did it. Meanwhile, take the kids camping.
 
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Not financing a boat but saving for it over 5 - 10 years in order to pay cash just means you miss out on boating during the wait. Unless you already have one and moving up. But even with that you don't get to enjoy the new boat as long.

I know several people who delayed buying a boat until they had cash. Or delay retirement to buy their first boat or their dream boat. Two died before buying the boat, another one's wife got rheumatoid arthritis and could not get on a boat and two died shortly after buying the boat.

Lifes too short. Buy a smaller boat or finance one and get out on the water. You don't need the best boat or the fastest or the biggest or _____________ boat.

I remember how enjoyable it was saling all day in a 8' El Torro when I was 12 - 14 years old. Simple fun with basics.

You'll live longer, healthier and happy as a boat owner.

100% this ^^^

Time and experience rather than net worth is our most precious form of wealth. It took me a long time to figure that out.
 
I bought a boat a few years ago and I’m slowly working on forgetting how much I paid for it. I also quit keeping track of how much I spend to maintain it. That way if my wife asks, I can honestly say I don’t know. IMG_7316.JPG
 
100% this ^^^

Time and experience rather than net worth is our most precious form of wealth. It took me a long time to figure that out.

The two most critical assets that money can't buy are time and health. There are so many people with high incomes and wealth and possessions, but they don't have, or don't make, the time to enjoy their money. They miss their kids growing up. They don't get time with their spouses, leading to not even really knowing them well and eventual divorce. Or they save for the future but by the time they're ready to use their savings, they or their spouse has lost their health. I've even known couples who couldn't do what they'd planned in retirement because a child of theirs had lost their health. One whose child died leaving three kids behind that then they had to raise. They enjoyed the grandkids immensely and they saw all three graduate from college. Now, they could retire and travel, although had to wait for the granddaughter's wedding. The grandfather did look forward to walking her down the aisle. Unfortunately, he had a heart attack and died one week before.

One thing I've learned is that we can't change the past and we can't control the future. We have the present and we need to live it fully to the best of our ability. That doesn't mean we ignore planning for the future, but we don't sacrifice the present for a future we can't guarantee.

We saved toward retirement, but never in doing so did we deprive ourselves of enjoying the present. We lived on the lake but in a small home. We owned a large bowrider. If I'd had to borrow for the house and boat I would have. I would not have said I didn't deserve them until I could save for them. I would have had a less expensive boat. I would have worked longer in my career. However, we wouldn't have sacrificed our prime years simply because we had to finance. We would have financed within our means, consistent with what was affordable at our income level.

We budget and use it to plan and we live within our means. However, when something really important to us comes along, we look at it's impact and we change our plans. There are those extended family members very important to us and we'd start selling boats and houses or do anything else we had to if they had a need we wanted to somehow take care of.

I worked at least 330 days a year, working 6 and 7 days a week, working 52 weeks a year, working 60 hours a week, before I met my wife. I never worked more than 45 hours a week after that and I took every vacation I had plus bargained for more each year. We turned down higher paying jobs because we didn't want to sacrifice our happiness. Thank god she taught me what was important in life. My father was an alcoholic and smoked heavily and died of a heart attack at 59. My mother had heart trouble and she died of a stroke at 68. My wife's parents never saw retirement. If we were to die tomorrow, we've enjoyed our lives in amazing ways.

There is a balance between over-extending and depriving oneself. Finding that is important and each must figure out how to do so for themselves.
 
100% this ^^^

Time and experience rather than net worth is our most precious form of wealth. It took me a long time to figure that out.

So true Steven. My wife and I walked away from corporate executives positions to start our own business in our 30's and retired from that in our 40's when we felt we had enough.
We started part time businesses to keep busy and extra cash but we boat all summer and spend a lot of time working on Sandpiper. Eventually downsized and moved out into the sticks. We missed the high earning potential of corporate life but we never look backward.

Sounds like you are headed in that direction, but more adventure.
 
One has to look to see where above the minimun net worth/cash flow it takes to be comfortable in many aspects of life to say whether it is worth the stretch or not.


When one has to cut back on simple things in life to afford things...that's wholly different than giving up or reducing luxuries in order to buy a boat.


Giving up the family ski vacation to pay for winter storage say rather than reducing grocery bills, air conditioning bills, etc don't equal in my book....
 
Greetings,
Mr. ps. Excellent point. Similarly, saving until you can buy a "big" boat keeps you off the water for X months/years. You can't get that lost time back.


Our "up north, summer boat" is a 23' Penn Yan. We've had our grandkids out annually for a one week "adventure" for the past four summer. Two adults, two boys (10 and 14) and a 65lb dog. Cramped? Hahahaha. Of course but I wouldn't change a thing. Looking forward to NEXT summer.


I do store it on a trailer in the back yard but only have about $6K into the whole works.
 
Passagemaker has an end page editorial that cites a widely held rule of thumb that a person should spend around 5% of their net worth on a boat. The author's main point is that he doesn't agree with that rule of thumb but it still got me thinking.

In my mind I've been thinking that the right amount to budget is about the same as I'd spend on a house - which is a good bit more than 5% of my net worth.

So what do people think? Is there a good range that people should budget for? I don't want to end up buying a boat that is way more than I can afford....

Hmmm, 5% you say. Guess I need to buy a bigger boat.
 
Hmmm, 5% you say. Guess I need to buy a bigger boat.
Exactly. The idea that by valuing a boat you can calculate the owner`s net financial worth is preposterous.
 
What is the typical boat-loan interest? Worth it for immediate gratification unless moving full-time home from land to water? I say "no" and others will say yes/yield to the power of compound interest.
 
As already mentioned here, financing a boat allows one to enjoy the lifestyle earlier. I think this is the best reason to go the loan route. But don’t forget that for many, borrowing makes more financial sense than buying cash. In the last 10 years or so the income from common investments like mutual funds are higher than what lenders are charging for boat loans. Add to that the tax benefits of having a mortgage deduction on your boat loan and it makes little to no sense to buy outright.
 
What is the typical boat-loan interest? Worth it for immediate gratification unless moving full-time home from land to water? I say "no" and others will say yes/yield to the power of compound interest.

You make immediate gratification sound bad. Is a kiss by a loved one bad? Is sex bad? Is the gratification of being able to spend time on the water with your kids bad? I think there is danger in immediate gratification, things like drugs and alcohol, but I don't dismiss it all. There is no future gratification as valuable to a parent as time with their children today. Boating, in my opinion, is absolutely one of the best family activities possible. There are few other ways for the entire family to enjoy themselves together. Most of the time they're all off in separate directions.

You talk about compound interest but several others have addressed the other side. My earnings on investments have far exceeded prevailing interest rates on boat financing the last few years and that's not even counting investments in business. This is coming from someone who doesn't finance boats, but there's a lot of logic in doing so. Seavee has given great arguments here for financing.

There's also the opposite of immediate gratification. That is waiting for a time that never comes or that may come too late. It takes the form of "We're waiting to get married until we have better jobs." Or, "We're not going to have kids until we're sure we can afford them." Or, "we'll buy a boat when our kids are all out of college". Kids graduate and one of the spouses becomes ill.

I'm conservative in nature, but we should not be so conservative as to forego opportunity to enjoy life. We can be so scared of being unprepared for the future that we miss all present opportunity. My wife and I faced a situation shortly after meeting in which there was a real possibility of having to give up our careers and everything we had in life to be together and we both were ready with not one moment's hesitation. For the first time in my life I had my priorities right.

We also both have only unpleasant memories from our childhoods, so I say without hesitation to all parents not to do anything that forces you to miss the opportunities you have to spend with family and kids. You can't ever get that family time back. It's worth more than any retirement plans.

I respect that what you have done has worked for you, Mark. However, I don't like disparaging others who feel differently. Don't dismiss immediate gratification altogether. What we've done is more like what you've done in waiting, but doesn't mean it's the best way for others.
 
So many ways of looking at things.

I "could" have borrowed against the house and bought a more expensive version of what we have and been half a mill or more in the hole , then paying $12,000 a year for a spot to park her and also needing a car so I could go back to work indefinitely to pay for a boat I rarely had time to use let alone maintain, so then pay out even more.

Or I could buy the cosmetically not so shiney version for cash, rent out the house and go now relatively young with more than enough time for fun and maintenance., no marina berth required.
 
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"So many ways of looking at things."

So true and not one absolute path. We are debt adverse but It really comes down to what numbers work for you and what trade offs one is willing to accept.
Find that balance if you can and take the plunge. We've had our boat for five years and I hope to own it for another 10-15. Whenever we are done, these will be treasured times!
Best of luck in your search.
 

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