Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-01-2012, 11:20 AM   #1
Newbie
 
City: Annapolis
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2
Need serious opinions on buying an old trawler

I almost bought a near perfectly maintained 1979 40' marine trader (list $76K, contract for $65k). Financing fell thru. Now looking at a craigslisting for an almost same boat for $20K. No supposed soggy hull, and no teak decks. However, leaks where the topside mounts to the deck, so that walls will need to be torn out, and replaced. Supposedly, $5k will do the trick. The question is however: will i continuosly throw good money after bad (some say $50k - $150k over the next 10 - 15 years). The good news is i don't have to worry about getting a loan, and I'm not a perfectionist, and am quite handy. Single diesel has 3,000 hours which sounds legit. Since I own a 2670 Cruisers, this trawler is strickly for living on and using as a second home. also, heard about iron tanks, but $5k ish will get me a alt to pulling tanks thru a hole in the hull. Where does the 50-150 numbers come from, assuming good hull core????
__________________
Advertisement

Fedarcyks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 11:34 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
City: Green Cove Springs, Florida
Country: USA
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 210
Send a message via Skype™ to bglad
If the fuel tanks are bad how will you fix them for $5K?
__________________

bglad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 11:37 AM   #3
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedarcyks View Post
However, leaks where the topside mounts to the deck, so that walls will need to be torn out, and replaced. Supposedly, $5k will do the trick. The question is however: will i continuosly throw good money after bad (some say $50k - $150k over the next 10 - 15 years).

You WILL throw allot of money and time at any boat over a 10-15 year time span.

You have two phases with any boat.

1. Restore (catching up on defered maintenance)
2. Upkeep

Buying a project boat means that of course you will have allot more "restore"

Those numbers don't suprise me. If you supply 100% of the labor you will probably come out less but then you'll have a large investment of your time.
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 11:41 AM   #4
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Not being a perfectionist is a real plus for a $20K boat in the 40 foot range. The majority of boats on Craigslist with seemingly low prices are typically there for a reason, brokers won't touch them.

Before making a move on it do yourself a favor, locate and hire a good surveyor to inspect the boat thoroughly. Owner supplied recent surveys do NOT count. It's the best money you'll spend. You may have stumbled upon the deal of a lifetime or the start of a nightmare. A survey will assist you determining which.

"The question is however: will i continuosly throw good money after bad?"

Answer: Perhaps more than you may imagine.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 12:00 PM   #5
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedarcyks View Post
I almost bought a near perfectly maintained 1979 40' marine trader (list $76K, contract for $65k). Financing fell thru. Now looking at a craigslisting for an almost same boat for $20K. .........
There's a reason for the difference in the price. A 40' boat for $20K is just a short way from the scrap heap. If you want something to block up in the back yard to occupy your time (and the neighbors don't mind), buy it. Just understand that in the end, regardless of the time and money you invest, you will still have a $20K boat.

It might bother ou to spend $1K to have a $20K boat surveyed as suggested above, but it could save you from wasting the other $19K.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 12:16 PM   #6
Newbie
 
City: Annapolis
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2
2 smaller 'plastic' tanks, leaving the old ones de-comissioned in place. Any thoughts on my questions????
Fedarcyks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 12:33 PM   #7
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Some surveyors offer a pre-purchase survey for far less than the cost of a full survey that'll help you assess if it's worth pursuing. Another route you can go is making your offer contingent upon an acceptable survey before closing the deal.

Say you like the boat and offer full asking 20K contingent upon a clean survey. Surveyor comes along and finds the keel full of water and delaminated stringers. Estimated cost to repair of say 6K. If you wish to pursue it ask for a 6K price reduction or if you can not agree to that and wish to walk away you can.

It's just a way to protect yourself from making a potential mistake in purchasing a vessel that'll break your heart and dreams.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 12:51 PM   #8
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
Ditto

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
Not being a perfectionist is a real plus for a $20K boat in the 40 foot range. The majority of boats on Craigslist with seemingly low prices are typically there for a reason, brokers won't touch them.

Before making a move on it do yourself a favor, locate and hire a good surveyor to inspect the boat thoroughly. Owner supplied recent surveys do NOT count. It's the best money you'll spend. You may have stumbled upon the deal of a lifetime or the start of a nightmare. A survey will assist you determining which.

"The question is however: will i continuosly throw good money after bad?"

Answer: Perhaps more than you may imagine.
Great advice!
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 02:15 PM   #9
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedarcyks
2 smaller 'plastic' tanks, leaving the old ones de-comissioned in place. Any thoughts on my questions????
And new deck fills above? And fuel lines? And returns? And mounting points with tie downs? A lot of work to lower the value even further IMHO
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 02:19 PM   #10
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,877
I will probably get slammed for this, but Marine Traders have a checkered build history. Some are crap, and some are pretty good.

The crap ones have superstructures built of cardboard filled plywood with just a thin skin of fiberglass over it. So any leaks in the joints quickly rots the core out of these panels and leaves them with no structural strength.

I had a friend with one of these and he took a chain saw to the entire superstructure and started over.

So by all means hire a surveyor to assess the boat, but at a $20K price tag be prepared for junk or almost junk. That isn't to say that almost junk might not make a nice liveaboard.

David
djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 06:59 PM   #11
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 511
Fedar, if you are here long enough you will see that I have a different perspective than most here, so.......
If you are looking at a 40' boat for $20k, don't expect to be able to go after the seller to lower the price according to your surveyors pitfalls. Its a 40' boat for $20k, you'd better be expecting lots of things to need attention. If you are buying said boat for $75k sure go after them for problems turned up in a survey as you are paying full price for said boat. I buy and sell most things on the low end of the spectrum because I like to pay cash and not have to make payments and throw away money in interest and I'm not a perfectionist and I do all my own work. I have sent more than one "buyer" packing after coming to see something I'm selling and then start nitpicking. I do give honest descriptions of what my items are like and what they need. I've been around boats all my life and I can't see what any surveyor would be able to tell me that I couldn't know about for myself. My boats will never be up to ABYC MOUSE or any other acronym's standards but they are safe and I use the heck out of them and take my family aboard. Go see this boat, poke your head in every nook and cranny, run the motor, genset, A/C other major systems, check out plumbing, heads, and general condition of wiring and make your decision based on what you are willing to get into. For some people having to do a repower would be the deal breaker, or leaking tanks etc. Only you can tell what actually is a deal breaker for you.
PS sometimes you stumble on a DEAL. Don't let naysayers keep you from atleast going to look, you may be the 1st person to show up! I was the 1st to show and offer on my Mainship. Tropical storm Lee combined with a BAD stockmarket day netted me a great deal.
__________________
TIME well wasted
34' Mainship III
Cape Coral, FL
twiisted71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 07:59 PM   #12
Guru
 
bobofthenorth's Avatar
 
City: Cowichan Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gray Hawk
Vessel Model: Defever 43 Offshore Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 570
What "twiisted71" said. It doesn't matter what you pay for a boat its going to need ongoing maintenance. The question is whether you can take a $20k boat and bring it to where it is equivalent to some initially more expensive boat for less than it would cost to just buy the more expensive boat. And only you can answer that.

Personally I wouldn't touch it because I've seen projects grow exponentially. But I gained that knowledge (maybe I should say "skepticism") by tackling projects that I shouldn't have. As long as you don't value your labour too highly a project can be a great learning experience, no matter how it turns out. And $20k isn't a lot to pay for an education, as long as that initial $20k doesn't turn into $120k spent on what ends up being a $20k boat. I've already said I wouldn't tackle this but if I was going to my first question would be "can I use it exactly as it is right now?" As long as the answer to that question is yes then you can go slow, learn your way into the project and not risk more than you understand.
bobofthenorth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 10:26 PM   #13
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,877
If you are handy and creative and don't listen to the "get an expert to do it" posters....

There's no way you will spend more than about 50K on pieces and parts (except engine and generator).

I bought a troubled Albin...spenk $57K for a new motor and the rest was framework. When I'm done I will have done a $30K bottom job for 2K, replaced all the teak decks with glass, completely redone flybridge, new sanitary system with new heads, redo of the fresh water plumbing, new fuel tanks, diesel heating system new swim platform, 16 new aluminum windows, 50 amp service upgrade, new electronics, carpeting...and a few more things...so the boats gonna be like new...but may only meet really fancy workboat standards...not mega-yacht standards...good enough for me and most people...all for under 30K so she'll be better than new in many respects, with a 200 hour new Lehman 135 and rebuilt 8KW Westerbeake genset. So she'll com in a tad over 85K spread over several years and be EXACTLY the way I want her.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 10:35 PM   #14
Guru
 
motion30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 740
I look at it this way It cost as much to replace a system or part that is "not to bad" as it does to replace a part that is total junk Another way to look at it is it is the same cost to replace a cushion that is completely torn and raged out as It does to relace one that is just faded and ugly
motion30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 10:42 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Fighterpilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 373
The problem I have with all of this is the fact that the $76,000 boat could have major problems as well, and you have a lot more money invested to start with even at the contract price of $65000. . It is an old boat. A survey, done by your surveyor is a must, and even than you could get burned. There are surveyors and than there are suveyors.
Your use was for living aboard. If you aren't going to do a lot of cruising but mostly stay in port than the ship requirements are easier than those that cruise and go to sea often.

I replaced a 105 gal. fuel tank for $1000 dollars.
Fighterpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 06:40 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
City: Green Cove Springs, Florida
Country: USA
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 210
Send a message via Skype™ to bglad
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedarcyks View Post
2 smaller 'plastic' tanks, leaving the old ones de-comissioned in place. Any thoughts on my questions????
The information you gave in your original post gives very little insight into how you would proceed on a project like this. Your answer above provides some clarity.

By installing more tanks to hold fuel and leaving the old ones in place you have retained the ability to run the engines and generator but reduced the utility of the vessel by consuming valuable space. I think it diminishes the value of the boat because now a buyer who wants a Marine Trader has to undo that and fix the bad tank(s) too. Do enough Bandaid repairs and the boat becomes unsellable. Change systems and make them unsafe it becomes uninsurable and you may not be able to buy dockage at a marina.

Hire someone who knows more than you whether it is a surveyor or a capable friend who has done it himself to look at the boat with you. Someone who will listen to what you want to do and put knowing eyes on the boat then make your decision based on what you learn.
bglad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 06:47 AM   #17
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
but $5k ish will get me a alt to pulling tanks thru a hole in the hull.

Who ever told you this does not have any concept on fiberglass boat construction.

Chop a hole in the side is a STEEL boat technique , probably the death of a GRP boat.

If your not a perfectionist the simplest technique is to NOT repair replace every less than perfect area.

There are loads of low cost, low time methods for patching to a useable standard , rather than attempting some yachtie form of perfection.

Do you want to simply spend years USING the boat, or is boat repair and expense your new hobby?
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 07:31 AM   #18
Senior Member
 
City: Green Cove Springs, Florida
Country: USA
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 210
Send a message via Skype™ to bglad
[QUOTE=FF;101492]but $5k ish will get me a alt to pulling tanks thru a hole in the hull.

Who ever told you this does not have any concept on fiberglass boat construction.

Chop a hole in the side is a STEEL boat technique , probably the death of a GRP boat.

In fact chopping a hole in the boat is the way tanks are being changed in a number of fiberglass boats I have seen (a Marine Trader and DeFever this year so far). Not very elegant but apparently considered a satisfactory repair by some builders and yards who are doing the work. I am not being argumentative here just pointing out that it is and will be done more and more as many of the old gals tanks age out and need to be changed.
bglad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 07:57 AM   #19
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,877
[QUOTE=bglad;101496]
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
but $5k ish will get me a alt to pulling tanks thru a hole in the hull.

Who ever told you this does not have any concept on fiberglass boat construction.

Chop a hole in the side is a STEEL boat technique , probably the death of a GRP boat.

In fact chopping a hole in the boat is the way tanks are being changed in a number of fiberglass boats I have seen (a Marine Trader and DeFever this year so far). Not very elegant but apparently considered a satisfactory repair by some builders and yards who are doing the work. I am not being argumentative here just pointing out that it is and will be done more and more as many of the old gals tanks age out and need to be changed.
I have heard the same...couldn't find my link but there's a yard someplace up here in the Northeast that advertises themselves as being recognized and approved by many insurance companies (some policies state that major work has to be inspected by a surveyor).
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 08:37 AM   #20
Guru
 
JohnP's Avatar
 
City: Toms River
Country: USA
Vessel Name: D U E T T E
Vessel Model: 1996 36' Island Gypsy
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,109
Project boats intrique me. However if you are going to put all this time and effort and $$$ make sure this is pretty much your forever boat. Otherwise you will lose interest as things become difficult or you determine the boat is not for you.

At that point you will have to give it away along with everything you bought for it.

As far as tanks go you should cut them up and clear them out, removing as much crap from the engine compartment as possible. Clean it completely and paint it fresh and new. At that point you can reinstall any equiptment that proves to be usable--replace as much as you can with new. Wiring, plumbing, pumps, waterheaters whatever.

You can use smaller tanks, leave room to double them up later if you need more range.

If the boat has leaks and damaged wood work all over, it will be a long time before it becomes a liveaboard and not a workshop.

If I were doing this much work on a boat I would perfer to have one with a more consistant build quality, such as a Grandbanks, There are lots of 42s on Yachtworld and some are priced low. It would seem you could get one for 50 or 60k.

Although you could still have a project boat, I don't think the interiors get anywhere near as bad as some of the Marine Traders. If you buy a quality boat the money you spend restoring may not be wasted.

My 2cents-- JohnP
__________________

JohnP is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012