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Old 08-04-2013, 09:17 PM   #1
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Need a bigger boat?

I own a 31' Camano Troll, live in SE Virginia and cruise the lower Chesapeake Bay and the waters of coastal NC where I grew up. Mostly ICW and the occasional trip across an open sound.

Last month, I had the opportunity to cross the eastern end of the Albemarle sound in quite the chaos. For those not familiar with the Albemarle Sound, it stretches east to west, probably 100 miles, maybe 30 miles north to south. Probably not much more than 20 feet deep or so center channel.

On this particular day, there were thunderstorms moving west to east and we were caught in the eastern end, in 5-7 ft. swells, probably 3 sec interval, nasty to say the least. Coming from about 045 relative as we were headed south. Had about 15nm to travel, it was not pleasant.

I have been in the Albemarle in similar conditions in my Mainship 390 and it did not seem near as bad.

To make a long story short, the wife did not handle the "rolling" very well, we were being tossed around quite a bit.

Questions:

1. How to handle this scenario, best speed? max or slow or ?

2. Given I travel in these waters all the time, should I consider a larger displacement boat? The Camano is 16000 lbs. or possibly a longer boat? The Camano is 28' at the water line.

Thanks for your insight,
Kurt
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:52 PM   #2
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Kurt,
In answer to all of your questions, yes but no. You need to understand the Albermarle is quite possibly some of the nastiest inshore stuff you will encounter on the east coast. You have a couple of choices:
Don't cross the Albermarle in the afternoon ever!
Get a bigger boat (heavier) and still don't cross on some afternoons.
The Camano as pleasant as they are, are very light (calm water) boats.
The Wright Brothers chose Kitty Hawk because the winds blow every afternoon.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:32 PM   #3
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I feel for you Kurt.
With your semidisplacement hull those quartering short seas wouldn't be nice. (they aren't on any boat) Often shallow waters like that can get more uncomfortable than offshore.

I don't know the particular area, but when things get rough, a straight line to your destination is not always best. If you can head straight into the worst of the swell until you get to more protected water, it may be preferable.

A bigger boat of similar design will be slightly better, but without some sort of roll control system it will never be nice.

Our semi-protected waters are often similar, although not quite so short with deeper water. When I raise the sails, rolling is reduced by at least 75%. A motorsailer may be a better option than going bigger.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:50 AM   #4
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Thanks, I have never considered a motorsailer, but I did follow your thread on the motorsailer you found for sale. I wonder what types of motorsailers there are in the 40 foot range. Off to do some more research...


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I feel for you Kurt.
With your semidisplacement hull those quartering short seas wouldn't be nice. (they aren't on any boat) Often shallow waters like that can get more uncomfortable than offshore.

I don't know the particular area, but when things get rough, a straight line to your destination is not always best. If you can head straight into the worst of the swell until you get to more protected water, it may be preferable.

A bigger boat of similar design will be slightly better, but without some sort of roll control system it will never be nice.

Our semi-protected waters are often similar, although not quite so short with deeper water. When I raise the sails, rolling is reduced by at least 75%. A motorsailer may be a better option than going bigger.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:15 AM   #5
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AusCan and Daddyo make good points...mine will echo most of them.

Don't cross when it's that sloppy for whatever boat you have...

You have to go a lot bigger or a more radical design (or pay for stabilizers) to get rid of even the smallest chop that's on a bad angle.

On my trip south last winter...I waited an extra day in Coinjock because the conditions sounded bad. A 45 Sportfish on it's way to Honduras reported it was miserable. The next day it was fine for all but very small boats.

On my way back north...I rushed north by a day to hit it on the best day of the week and still wound up taking a more northwesterly run to get into a better lee but then the run up even the Pasquotank was miserable as the wind was funneling down it.

So even a heavier 40 footer still has to pick it's days...

The question is....how big or extreme are you really willing to go? How much on schedule are you when you cruise?
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:33 AM   #6
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My wife and I decided in the middle of the Strait of San Juan De Fuca on a nice sunny afternoon day with a 28 ft. We needed a bigger boat. My wife bought the Eagle, 58 ft, 40 tons, full displacements. However, we still not do cross in the after noon with the thermal winds. We usually cross early in the morning. you might be surprised what your wife may buy.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt.reynolds View Post
Thanks, I have never considered a motorsailer, but I did follow your thread on the motorsailer you found for sale. I wonder what types of motorsailers there are in the 40 foot range. Off to do some more research...
Lots of choices, Look at the Nauticats, Schuckers, & there is a Willard 40 motorsailer.

To see the effect of the sails, have a look at post#9 here.

Kangaroo Island

Its a video of a recent outing. I was heading into mixed up quartering seas, although nothing like you were in. But it sounds like a similar angle. You'll see there is almost no rolling motion, only a bit of rocking horse action which is much easier on the boat and stomach.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:45 AM   #8
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The crossing being a little better in the Mainship 390 could be due to many things---direction and angle of seas, weight, power to counter act the forces, even a wider beam. As stated by others there are just some days it is best to stay in the harbor or at anchor. The mouth of the Neuse going around Maw Point shoal is another place that can be as bad.

Your Comano is good for over 99.5% of the boating you do. Just recognize its limitations and capabilities. It should do well for coastal boating as long as the weather is factored in. You can be uncomfortable in almost any boat on Albemarle Sound. I have.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:18 PM   #9
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You were likely porpoising.

Waves and water.

Like this: (or worse likely!)
Core Creek 02 - YouTube
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:35 PM   #10
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I was in 5 to 8 footers with a pretty short period with my 34 Californian and going from 7 knots to 10 made all the difference in the world. I was in a similar situation with a buddy on his semi displacement down east boat and going from 6 knots to 14 did the trick. At 14 knots there was the occasional wave that hammered us pretty good though!
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:39 PM   #11
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Yeah, lots worse. Nearly buried the bow in a wave or two. Buried the anchor in more than one. The worst part was not the rolling it was when a wave would catch you just right, throw you like 90 degrees off course and you would slide down in the trough stern first and just have to wait to get steerage back.

Thanks for all the posts and encouragement. We are actually taking another week long cruise starting next Friday and will be out there again

Regards,
Kurt



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You were likely porpoising.

Waves and water.

Like this: (or worse likely!)
Core Creek 02 - YouTube
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt.reynolds View Post
Yeah, lots worse. Nearly buried the bow in a wave or two. Buried the anchor in more than one. The worst part was not the rolling it was when a wave would catch you just right, throw you like 90 degrees off course and you would slide down in the trough stern first and just have to wait to get steerage back.

Thanks for all the posts and encouragement. We are actually taking another week long cruise starting next Friday and will be out there again

Regards,
Kurt
Kurt,

This sounds as if you were in following or quartering seas. Quartering seas are the worst. It definitely takes constant attention to the wheel and throttle adjustments to run in those kind of seas. A good high torque engine with a large prop and rudder is a big help. Sounds like you were getting into a broach situation----dangerous. Just don't run in those kind of conditions.

The problem with a week long cruise is that it leaves little time for waiting out weather. Get as good a long range forecast as possible before leaving.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:30 PM   #13
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The worst thing to have on a boat is a schedule.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:20 PM   #14
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Duvie;
Were those 5 to 8's following seas or head seas? I find that our Californian 34 really slams if I put too much power into it in head on stuff. I'm better off catching them at slower speeds & a small angle to either side. Following seas I just try stay on the back of the wave(s) and watch my stern for surprises. Albermarle Sound & Gulf of Mexico off Naples & Marco Island come to mind as some ugly rides involving following seas
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
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...
To see the effect of the sails, have a look at post#9 here.
Kangaroo Island
Its a video of a recent outing. I was heading into mixed up quartering seas, although nothing like you were in. But it sounds like a similar angle. You'll see there is almost no rolling motion, only a bit of rocking horse action which is much easier on the boat and stomach.
Missed the original post while away. The ferry trip to KI (for 5 fascinating days visit) was memorably rough, breakfast just retained. The steadying you obtained from raising sail is impressive. I wonder how much help owners of trawlers with steadying sail set ups, like some GBs, get from using them, assuming they do.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:01 PM   #16
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Missed the original post while away. The ferry trip to KI (for 5 fascinating days visit) was memorably rough, breakfast just retained. The steadying you obtained from raising sail is impressive. I wonder how much help owners of trawlers with steadying sail set ups, like some GBs, get from using them, assuming they do.
I think the GB's steadying sail is a little small to be overly effective in roll reduction, but it may help a little. I'm guessing they may only be about 100 square feet.
My main is about 200 sq ft and the jib another 100. Too small to be considered a "real" sail boat, but super simple to handle single handed even for a non-experienced sailer.

When I get home, I'll try to film a short video of the boats motion in 4-6 ft swells before & after raising the sails. It's like night & day.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:38 PM   #17
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Krogen

I just spent some time looking over the Kadey Krogen website and several videos of the boat. Looks like the Krogen 42 is quite the boat with a lot of stability concerns built into the design. And what a heavy boat she is, 40,000lbs in the 42 alone.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Yeah, lots worse. Nearly buried the bow in a wave or two. Buried the anchor in more than one.
Good grief I hate that.

Especially when the boat rises up and then crashes back down. I fear if I should have a sea cock or some random hose failure during those times. I've buried the anchor. Not at all fun. Family not happy when we did that, but stuck in Pamlico Sound NC with an 8 knot cruise max.

What my pics show is when its bouncy but I feel confident enough to hold the iPhone out there. When I'm burying the anchor I am just driving and trying to manage the rise and fall of the boat to minimize the impact forces.

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Old 08-07-2013, 08:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
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I just spent some time looking over the Kadey Krogen website and several videos of the boat. Looks like the Krogen 42 is quite the boat with a lot of stability concerns built into the design. And what a heavy boat she is, 40,000lbs in the 42 alone.
What are the stability concerns?

Based on what the KK42 was designed as, I'm not so sure they are that heavy when compared to say a Nordhavn. Their 40' model displaces 50,000lbs and there 43 displaces 60,000 lbs. The 44" flush deck Defever, I think, displaces ~44,000 lbs.

Now if you're comparing KK42 to a 40' Albin, a 42' CHB Europa or even a 42" Grand Banks, yes, the KK42 is heavier.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:20 AM   #20
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What are the stability concerns?

Based on what the KK42 was designed as, I'm not so sure they are that heavy when compared to say a Nordhavn. Their 40' model displaces 50,000lbs and there 43 displaces 60,000 lbs. The 44" flush deck Defever, I think, displaces ~44,000 lbs.

Now if you're comparing KK42 to a 40' Albin, a 42' CHB Europa or even a 42" Grand Banks, yes, the KK42 is heavier.
A 42 KK dwarfs an Albin 40 (which in reality is a very small 38-39)...my waterline length is only 36 feet.
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