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Old 03-06-2014, 05:45 PM   #1
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Thumbs up NDZ in Puget Sound

Great Article:

NDZs are not the answer | Loose Cannon
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:41 PM   #2
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Yup. . . That's Washington State for you.

Unfortunately, the radical side of the environmental movement in this state gets heard all too often. Those with more moderate views often go unheard. If they had their way, only paddle and sailboats would be allowed in Washington waters!! It really leaves a sour taste in everyone's mouths.
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:20 PM   #3
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If you want to make a comment go to:

No Discharge Zone homepage | Clean Green Boating | Washington State Department of Ecology, NDZ

There is also an email address for the dingbat that thought this up:

amy.jankowiak@ecy.wa.gov <amy.jankowiak@ecy.wa.gov

Seems to me, what she is trying to accomplish is outlawing Electrosan type MSD's even though they meet USCG requirements. I wonder how many boats actually have these, maybe 5%?
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:47 AM   #4
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This seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem. I read through Ecology's own consultant's findings and it was a bit difficult to find the problem. As to private vessels, 91.1% have holding tanks. 1.3% have Type I MSDs, 3.6% have Type II MSDs, only 0.7% have neither. The study listed 9 types of commercial vessels, only 2 of which were either non-compliant or would have difficulty complying-Tugs and NOAA vessels!

So, it seems the only vessels really affected are Tugs, NOAA and 5.6% of recreational vessels (the 4.9% with MSDs and .7% with nothing). Knowledge and acceptance of pumpout locations was quite high at over 85%. It is already a violation to discharge raw sewage within 3 miles of land. Unless my charts are way off, there is no place within greater Puget Sound where one is further than 3 miles from land. So, anybody, even with holding tanks, who discharges in Puget Sound is in violation. That is an enforcement issue, not a "new regulation" issue. If there are enforcement issues with existing laws/regulations, it is interesting that in the application for the NSZ, there are no provisions for education, extending of facilities, or enforcement.

In short, what the hell is the point?
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Old 03-09-2014, 07:12 AM   #5
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Quote:
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This seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem. I read through Ecology's own consultant's findings and it was a bit difficult to find the problem. As to private vessels, 91.1% have holding tanks. 1.3% have Type I MSDs, 3.6% have Type II MSDs, only 0.7% have neither. The study listed 9 types of commercial vessels, only 2 of which were either non-compliant or would have difficulty complying-Tugs and NOAA vessels!

So, it seems the only vessels really affected are Tugs, NOAA and 5.6% of recreational vessels (the 4.9% with MSDs and .7% with nothing). Knowledge and acceptance of pumpout locations was quite high at over 85%. It is already a violation to discharge raw sewage within 3 miles of land. Unless my charts are way off, there is no place within greater Puget Sound where one is further than 3 miles from land. So, anybody, even with holding tanks, who discharges in Puget Sound is in violation. That is an enforcement issue, not a "new regulation" issue. If there are enforcement issues with existing laws/regulations, it is interesting that in the application for the NSZ, there are no provisions for education, extending of facilities, or enforcement.

In short, what the hell is the point?

Nice summation...it should be distributed to the BoatUS Foundation, all legislators (as a model for "no new laws" ), the USCG and anyone else that could affect legislation within a 1000 mie of a body of water.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:45 AM   #6
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What gets me about this whole thing is that, although few will admit it, most people in Puget Sound probably macerate their waste overboard. Most probably either do not know its illegal or don't think its a big deal.

I have both a small holding tank and a Raritan sewage processing system, and this law specifically targets systems like mine while ignoring the real problem
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THD View Post
This seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem. I read through Ecology's own consultant's findings and it was a bit difficult to find the problem. As to private vessels, 91.1% have holding tanks. 1.3% have Type I MSDs, 3.6% have Type II MSDs, only 0.7% have neither. The study listed 9 types of commercial vessels, only 2 of which were either non-compliant or would have difficulty complying-Tugs and NOAA vessels!

So, it seems the only vessels really affected are Tugs, NOAA and 5.6% of recreational vessels (the 4.9% with MSDs and .7% with nothing). Knowledge and acceptance of pumpout locations was quite high at over 85%. It is already a violation to discharge raw sewage within 3 miles of land. Unless my charts are way off, there is no place within greater Puget Sound where one is further than 3 miles from land. So, anybody, even with holding tanks, who discharges in Puget Sound is in violation. That is an enforcement issue, not a "new regulation" issue. If there are enforcement issues with existing laws/regulations, it is interesting that in the application for the NSZ, there are no provisions for education, extending of facilities, or enforcement.

In short, what the hell is the point?
EXCELLENT THD!!!

Please copy and paste this into an email to:

amy.jankowiak@ecy.wa.gov and

ajan461@ecy.wa.gov

Thanks
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:58 PM   #8
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I already did and got a friend to send a version too her as well. I also tried to send it to Boat US "Government Affairs" but there is a problem with my members access and it won't accept the message. Let's me sign in, but the message won't go?

Could someone else with Boat US membership try sending it to them as well please.

Thanks
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:32 PM   #9
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Kevin-the Consultant's report actually showed that most do not macerate and dump, most recreational boats do use their holding tanks. Virtually all know that it is illegal o dump. So lack of knowledge is not the issue. Certainly there is some lack of caring, there always is. But, as I pointed out, that is an enforcement issue. No new regulation is going to change that.

There is no information in the consultant's report presents any scientific analysis tying local or more localized coliform bacteria counts to waste discharge from recreational (or commercial) vessels. Seems to me that the perfect laboratory would have been our marina, Shilshole Bay. Over 1,000 slips, a very substantial liveaboard population (almost 25%), and one of the most popular city beach/parks (Golden Gardens) immediately adjacent, and uptide from the marina. The way the Marina breakwater is constructed, the outgoing tide flushes the Marina not 500 yards from the beach. In the 14 years we have lived in Seattle, and almost 3 years in the Marina, as near as I can remember or find info, Golden Gardens Beach has never been closed or had a coliform bacteria warning. Certainly would not have been much effort for a graduate biology student from UW to monitor coliform counts over a bit of time, a pretty simple process.

As many here have noted, raw and semi-treated outflows from municipalities exceeds anything the boating community (recreational and commercial) puts overboard by such an order of magnitude as to be ridiculous. If one looked at coliform counts over time (if the data is available) virtually every localized excess count occurs in the vicinity of sewage outflow points.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:05 PM   #10
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I understand Kevin's concern as I'm debating on a Lectrasan this spring when I return from my trip.

It would be a no brainer if the world doesn't rapidly turn into a gigantic NDZ....but unfortunately...too many popular places are....
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:07 PM   #11
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Electrascan

Boat US had a report a couple of years ago on a EPA study of the effluent processed by the a Electrascan. Boat Waste-Treatment Technology - BoatUS Magazine
The results far exceeded all requirments. Often up and coming activist would be politicians chose an easytarget to build reputation on. Did You Know?
Once the EPA designates a No Discharge Zone, outlawing the use of marine sanitation device treatment systems, it's permanent, regardless of advancements in MSD technology.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:15 PM   #12
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Greetings,
Mr. S. Easy targets indeed. TPTB are seen to be addressing pollution and it isn't costing the taxpayers a dime whereas upgrades and improvements to land based sewage treatment plants to eliminate "oopsies" would increase taxes and cause howls of complaint to land based folks who just flush and forget. A increase in policing and application of laws already on the books, as mentioned, would cause a similar increase in taxes and elicit the same howls of complaint.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
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As many here have noted, raw and semi-treated outflows from municipalities exceeds anything the boating community (recreational and commercial) puts overboard by such an order of magnitude as to be ridiculous. If one looked at coliform counts over time (if the data is available) virtually every localized excess count occurs in the vicinity of sewage outflow points.
I have never seen a recognized saltwater study, in this state, that pointed to boater sewage contamination as a cause.

If you want to see some outrageous Coliform levels and explosive plankton growth, go over to Hoods Canal and Dyes Inlet during the summer months. Walk the beaches, which will mostly be closed to everything but walking due to the amount of bird and marine mammal feces covering the beaches. Stellar and California sea lions, seals and otters haul out on those beaches and do two things. . . eat and s--t. It takes months for the beaches and the water to clear. Water O2 levels are so low large bottom fish who normally live at depths greater than 120' will come to the surface to breath.

You don't hear the EPA calling for legislation to reduction the marine mammal population!! I guess that's not a politically popular subject? It's easier to blame boaters.
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Old 03-10-2014, 01:56 PM   #14
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. Unless my charts are way off, there is no place within greater Puget Sound where one is further than 3 miles from land. So, anybody, even with holding tanks, who discharges in Puget Sound is in violation.
Well, not really. I can always cross the line into Canada and pump overbaord to send my waste south.....
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:32 PM   #15
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No Discharge Zone homepage | Clean Green Boating | Washington State Department of Ecology, NDZ

Still not to late to comment.
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Old 03-19-2014, 06:44 PM   #16
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Did my part!!
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Old 03-19-2014, 06:51 PM   #17
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Me too!! And I even talked a couple of other friends into writing them a love letter. . . .
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