Navy Destroyer tee boned by a Freighter?

[Wxx3]

That the USN and 7th Fleet took two days to figure out they had the wrong time of the collision says a lot about the confusion on-board and their lack of communication.

 

[psneeld]

But isnt the argument that looking out the window would solve everything? Just kidding....sorta.

This isnt bumper cars where turning the wheel makes you spin in a circle.

Slow motion isnt even conceivable by small boat guys if they never operated a large vessel.

When multiple targets on multiple courses are in close proximity, and near the entrance to traffic lanes....decisions are based on manuevering that will take many minutes, not seconds....spread that out over a dozen vessels....scary.

I know very competent USCG crews that were nervous as heck just transiting the English Channel, the Panama Canal, entering San Diego, the Chesapeake Bay.....all because waiting for extremis in these areas feels like playing Russian roulette. Talking over the radio helps...but we all know how long it takes to get a point across, different languages, and then taking rvasive action that takes forever.

 

[diver dave]

Unfortunately for us, we are wasting our typing.

Possible fix #1: buy local, cut down on imports/exports. Not going to happen.
Possible fix #2: get the Navy off the oceans unless we need them. Not going to happen.
Possible fix #3: Make the Navy become more visible at sea. Reread post 90, not going to happen. In a couple decades, many USN ships won't even be visible on radar.

 

[Bigsfish]

DD

I have been told that ability to be seen by radar will be elective to the ship. At times it will be off but in navigation of ports it can be seen. Similar to how AIS works. ��

 

[FlyWright]

Freighter Was On Autopilot When It Hit US Destroyer

 

[psneeld]

I have kept abreast of military doctrine to a point....

Right now, not sure the Navy is convinced one way ir the other about being seen and avoided near other vessels.

Being seen to avoid accidental collision, not be seen to avoid terrorisn or acts of war. Either can come in the blink of an eye.

 

[LarryM]

DD

I have been told that ability to be seen by radar will be elective to the ship. At times it will be off but in navigation of ports it can be seen. Similar to how AIS works. ��

The acoustic, infrared, and radar signatures have been reduced on the 505' Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyers like the Fitzgerald, and are considered 'Reduced radar cross-section ships', so their relative radar target size is smaller than that of an ordinary ship of similar size.

The new 600' Zumwalt class is a 'Fully stealth ship' and has the radar signature of a 50-60' fishing boat. During its sea trials it carried radar reflectors that could be hoisted aloft when necessary. The reflectors, which look like metal cylinders, have been used on other warships and will be standard issue on the Zumwalt and two sister ships for times when stealth becomes a liability and they want to be visible on radar, like times of fog or heavy ship traffic.

For the most part, these 'Stealth' features and reductions in radar signature are purely passive, and are a function of the design of the ship and construction materials.

Reducing the visibility of combatant ships has been the goal of navies for centuries, and will continue for as long as we have them.

 

[BandB]

Freighter Was On Autopilot When It Hit US Destroyer

I saw that earlier and it clears up several questions while there are still more outstanding, more to be investigated. But it does then explain the delay in reporting the accident. It's a difficult read, reading about those below who lost their lives.

Reading elsewhere they haven't said who gave the order to close off the area with the 7 men. That would just have to be one of the most difficult decisions one could ever be faced with.

Watch.
Watch.
Watch.

Big boats, little boats, it doesn't matter. Keeping a good watch 100% of the time. Inadequate watch keeping plays a role in such a huge percentage of accidents.

 

[psneeld]

Usually it isn't an order seal off a section of a warship, it is a "condition" that is broadcast over the ships intercom and when in that condition, all appropriate doors and hatches ate srcured...no matter what, and can only be opened with proper authority. So sealing that space could have been done by anyone, opening it would have taken a pretty senior officer.

Conditions are ser by the current threat...like collision imminent.

 

[Bigsfish]

Scott

I would think that it would be automatic in the event of a collision that breaches the hull that watertight doors are secured ASAP to save the ship but I'm no military guy.

 

[psneeld]

Couldnt remember if condition Zebra was set upon alarm or after impact...it is automatic to dog all watertight doors after impact.

Conditions set what openings can be or not be open..

Most if not all openings on a ship are labeled. If a material condition is set, all those openings with that designation are shut, no questions asked...sort of....shut first, make the emergency call to see if can be altered to save a life...realistically that info usually comes too late for a flooding space.

 

[Bigsfish]

That would be the only logical order, to try to make a decision might be enough time to sink the ship and loss of more lives.

 

[Wxx3]

I have kept abreast of military doctrine to a point....

Right now, not sure the Navy is convinced one way ir the other about being seen and avoided near other vessels.

Being seen to avoid accidental collision, not be seen to avoid terrorisn or acts of war. Either can come in the blink of an eye.

I understand that the Navy's doctrine is that "we will watch you and avoid you", thus no AIS transmit makes some sense.
But you still have to execute.

A few more items I have run across:

1. It seems Japan does have a 'volantary" TSS in that area, that the Crystal was following.

2. Here is a link to the entiere AIS data, showing the movement of all boats (that were transmitting AIS info)

 

[FlyWright]

This hero should have a Navy ship named after him.

Navy Sailor Could Have Saved Himself, Chose to Save His ‘Kids’ or Die Trying

 

[HiDHo]

He lead by example, three months from having his time in for retirement.

 

[CDreamer]

No matter how all this turns out, or what the details turn out to be:
On a 900 ft merchant vessel in a very busy area, on a moonless night, with the bridge toward the stern and a pile of containers ahead, it seems unrealistic to expect the watch would/could actually be able to visually see the gray form of the Fitz 'out there' in the dark. Crystal was on autopilot, and I really doubt the watch was paying much attention beyond maybe glancing at the radar screen occasionally. That's just the way it is today and all of us in small boats should assume they don't see us.

 

[psneeld]

Funny how some ships actually run with only nav ligjts showing and others like cruise ships, are so lit up you can barely find the nav lights in the disney world.of.lights.

Wonder which actually helps more.....

 

[diver dave]

This is a nice little piece on various IR and visual methods to confuse the enemy. Tanks look like trucks, cars trying to be invisible, boats with either no or changing numbers, lots more.

Camouflage: You Ain’t Screen Nothin’ Yet

 

[mbevins]

My Brother in Law who sails offshore made the same comments. They often come across container ships with only bow and stern running lights. This was the main reason he put AIS on his sailboat. Often times a
huge ship is near impossible to see in the pitch black.

 

[Bigsfish]

Scott

Good point, certainly the lit ship is easier to see but you might not see the running lights to determine direction .

Another question, I wonder how many ships run over private vessels and never know it, a small bump in the night.

 

[psneeld]

Scott

Good point, certainly the lit ship is easier to see but you might not see the running lights to determine direction .

Another question, I wonder how many ships run over private vessels and never know it, a small bump in the night.

Have seen more than one picture of a ship coming into port with a sailboat mast stuck in a hawsepipe or anchor flukes.

 

[kthoennes]

I just don't get this whole thing. Last time we crossed New York Harbor my puny little 40 foot boat was lit up like a Christmas tree, AIS (receive and transmit) on, VHF on, radar on, chartplotter on, and four of us on the bridge looking out - and I still stood at the wheel the whole time, concentrating. I don't get this.

 

[BandB]

Scott

Good point, certainly the lit ship is easier to see but you might not see the running lights to determine direction .

Another question, I wonder how many ships run over private vessels and never know it, a small bump in the night.

You beat me to it on the lights. It's much easier to see a well lit boat. Not as easy to determine what it's doing visually. However, we instrumentation then you can easily see it's path and movement.

Well, assume for a moment that the container ship hit the destroyer and didn't instantly know it, I'm sure smaller items could be just a blip.

 

[psneeld]

I just don't get this whole thing. Last time we crossed New York Harbor my puny little 40 foot boat was lit up like a Christmas tree, AIS (receive and transmit) on, VHF on, radar on, chartplotter on, and four of us on the bridge looking out - and I still stood at the wheel the whole time, concentrating. I don't get this.

Ever been on the bridge of a big ship?

If so, I too think the surface fleet still operates like Columbus.

But if not, you would see that manuevering ships is like watching your kid fall off a swing about 100 yards away....no matter how fast you run....time stands still.

 

[kthoennes]

Ever been on the bridge of a big ship?

If so, I too think the surface fleet still operates like Columbus.

But if not, you would see that manuevering ships is like watching your kid fall off a swing about 100 yards away....no matter how fast you run....time stands still.

Normally I would think that, but the video posted earlier of that class of destroyer coming about - well, it might be able to run circles around mine. Made my 40 footer look like a coal barge.

 

[psneeld]

Normally I would think that, but the video posted earlier of that class of destroyer coming about - well, it might be able to run circles around mine. Made my 40 footer look like a coal barge.

And that will be the million dollar answer maybe

My guess is that normal ops dont involve full potential of that ships capabilities

The question might be, why wasnt or how late were those capabilities called upon?

USCG 378 foot cutters had speed and stopping capabilities like no one could believe, but the possible damage to the ship took some careful thought that those capabilities was justified...that hesitation could be the difference.

 

[Wxx3]

My Brother in Law who sails offshore made the same comments. They often come across container ships with only bow and stern running lights. This was the main reason he put AIS on his sailboat. Often times a
huge ship is near impossible to see in the pitch black.

One of the scariest moments I had was because of a large ships, dark nights and either too many lights or very few lights.

When a large ship had only running lights, I found it very difficult to judge how far away it was. Impossible in fact. Even though both the AIS and radar had it more than 1/4 mile away, it seemed like 50 feet.
The problem is simply on of how our brains decide on size, which it then uses to judge distance.

I was in the Kattegat. Everyone gets funneled over the top of Denmark. And everyone is going faster by 2x or 3x than I.

It's why I depend on AIS transmit. I need them to avoid me as much as I strive to avoid them.

I've also found that because of language issues, there is much less VHF traffic

 

[Wxx3]

And that will be the million dollar answer maybe
...
...that hesitation could be the difference.

I think this will be a significant factor.
Having decided not to call the CO in he first place, ... and it just went downhill from there.

So sad.

The one advantage we have on our little boats, is that being Master and Commander, there is no consequence worst than getting hit, so it makes decision making far easier.

 

[Benthic2]

the fact that a destroyer doesn't handle like a sports car has been brought up, but I don't think this is a lack of manuverability issue. If the Destroyer knew a collision was imminent, the captain would not have been in his cabin....but I don't know how they could NOT know..since the freighter seemed to follow a fairly straight course before impact.


There were some questions early on about whether it was a deliberate act by the freighter. It doesn't seem like that now, but this could give terrorists a blueprint for how to take out Navy ships. Getting on the bridge of a cargo ship is a lot easier than taking over a Boeing 767.

 

[markpierce]

Cruise ships are more lit up/visible than a Coast Guard cutter to the extreme right (and either the tugboat between) only showing navigational lights.