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Old 05-14-2015, 03:06 PM   #161
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Jeff-- I totally agree with your previous post. We happen to have paper on our boat because we like it for various reasons and we know how to use it properly because we're in a generation that learned with it.

But we certainly don't navigate our boat with it and we don't advocate doing so for anyone. Not when we have plotters that show us what the currents are doing in the passes in real time and what the navaid flash patterns are and all the other cool stuff they do. And can overlay Active Captain, which is what I meant by saying you're in the electronic navigation business.

If a boater believes paper is a good backup for when the electricicals stop holding hands, great. Particularly if they know how to use the paper correctly. If a boater wants only electronics because the redundancy available today makes a total electronics failure so unlikely as to not be worth worrying about, great. Talking to anyone in the commercial aviation industry about the value of redundancy is preaching to the choir.

But paper vs electronic is not the solution to every known problem man has. In the case of dying while boating the vast majority of instances are and will continue to be caused by bad or impaired decisions on the part of the boater, poor judgement, carelessness, or involuntary in the case of a medical fatality. The type of charts on the boat is totally irrelevant to all this.

To use your car navigation analogy a co-worker was seriously injured in an accident the other month. A car ran a red light and T-boned him in the passenger door. Both vehicles had GPS navigation. Both drivers had it turned on. In neither vehicle did it have the ability to prevent the accident.

A red light-disable-the-accelerator device might have. But the type of navigation system in the car, folding map or electronic? Nope.

Same deal with boating.
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Old 05-14-2015, 03:07 PM   #162
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For one willing to accept the difference between causation and correlation, you sure jump quick into making a statement of causation.
That's only because it was helping my argument!
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Old 05-14-2015, 04:40 PM   #163
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That's only because it was helping my argument!
That there is funny!!!!
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Old 05-14-2015, 06:06 PM   #164
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I actually think these statistics do relate to the electronic/paper argument.

You may THINK that...but no statistician worth his "salt" SHOULD draw that conclusion, without carefully examining whether other factors are at play. It's a long journey from conjecture to compelling evidence.



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Old 05-14-2015, 06:19 PM   #165
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You may THINK that...but no statistician worth his "salt" SHOULD draw that conclusion, without carefully examining whether other factors are at play. It's a long journey from conjecture to compelling evidence.
In the mid=1980s I had a notion of getting my MBA, which Boeing would pay for if I maintained a minimum of a specific GPA. So I started taking classes. The first two were an introduction to computing languages and statistics. I enjoyed the hell out of the computer class and came to despise the statistics class.

But it did have some value which I didn't realize at the time, of course. And part of that value was to understand the validity of what Jim wrote in his post.

The company I work for lives on statistics which are obtained in every way imaginable. While I do not work directly with them I am sometimes given projects that use statistics and the conclusions drawn from them to make or prove a point in the story I am being tasked to tell. And that very basic understanding of how to view and use statistics which I learned way back when has proven to be right on the money every time.
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Old 05-14-2015, 06:21 PM   #166
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Deleted, duplicate post.
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Old 05-14-2015, 07:12 PM   #167
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Thanks, I will.
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Old 05-14-2015, 08:24 PM   #168
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This post started in the bunk on the boat about midnight on a rainy night in March while I was worrying about my GPS puck going kaput and then no nav computer. Being a long way from the slip and not having a spare I wondered if I could find my way home w/ paper charts.
And now here we are solving world problems, carry on lads, y'all are awesome.
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Old 05-14-2015, 08:39 PM   #169
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This post started in the bunk on the boat about midnight on a rainy night in March while I was worrying about my GPS puck going kaput and then no nav computer. Being a long way from the slip and not having a spare I wondered if I could find my way home w/ paper charts.
...And you clearly did (find your way home)!



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Old 05-14-2015, 08:45 PM   #170
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I did, Jim. On the boat I can be, or am, a thinker about things that can go wrong. Thinker is an easier word to swallow than worrier.
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Old 05-14-2015, 09:11 PM   #171
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Being a long way from the slip and not having a spare I wondered if I could find my way home w/ paper charts.
And now here we are solving world problems, carry on lads, y'all are awesome.
Mike
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Gulf-- You were wondering about a valid situation. There are obviously a number of ways to deal with the situation as evidenced by the content of this thread.

Paper and the necessary tools and understanding to use them is one. Redundancy of electronics is another. A combination of both is still another. And the redundancy route has any number of possibilities when you include all the boat-powered and self-powered options that are available.

In this day and age I tend to agree with Jeff's basic premise that redundant electronics is the smartest way to go. The fact that some of us have been "defending" paper is not, I believe, because we feel it is superior as a backup (or primary) but that it's a viable backup IF...... the boater knows how to use it properly and likes using paper charts and doing the calculations and plotting that is necessary. Otherwise, as Jeff has correctly pointed out, they can be a real liability and put a boater in danger. Just as electronic navigation can be a liability if used improperly and without understanding.

As with most stuff having to do with anything, the only person who can determine what will work best for you is you. Whatever, if anything, you decide to do, I believe the most important thing is that what you choose as a backup navigation system or process should fit your comfort and confidence zones. So that when you wake up on a rainy night in March and think about how you're going to get home if a GPS puck craps out you'll have a solution that you have confidence in and are comfortable using.

Then you can lie there and worry about things like World Peace and who to vote for and who's going to win the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix and why licorice tastes the way it does.
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Old 05-14-2015, 10:15 PM   #172
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Gulf-- You were wondering about a valid situation. There are obviously a number of ways to deal with the situation as evidenced by the content of this thread.

Paper and the necessary tools and understanding to use them is one. Redundancy of electronics is another. A combination of both is still another. And the redundancy route has any number of possibilities when you include all the boat-powered and self-powered options that are available.

In this day and age I tend to agree with Jeff's basic premise that redundant electronics is the smartest way to go. The fact that some of us have been "defending" paper is not, I believe, because we feel it is superior as a backup (or primary) but that it's a viable backup IF...... the boater knows how to use them properly and likes using paper charts and doing the calculations and plotting that is necessary. Otherwise, as Jeff has correctly pointed out, they can be a real liability and put a boater in danger. Just as electronic navigation can be a liability if used improperly and without understanding.

As with most stuff having to do with anything, the only person who can determine what will work best for you is you. Whatever, if anything, you decide to do, I believe the most important thing is that what you choose as a backup navigation system or process should fit your comfort and confidence zones. So that when you wake up on a rainy night in March and think about how you're going to get home if a GPS puck craps out you'll have a solution that you have confidence in and are comfortable using.

Then you can lie there and worry about things like World Peace and who to vote for and who's going to win the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix and why licorice tastes the way it does.
I think this is an excellent synopsis of the passage we all just made.

Well said.
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Old 05-15-2015, 12:41 AM   #173
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True words Marin, all is well. Thanks to all for the conversation.
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