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Old 05-12-2015, 02:18 PM   #121
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Perhaps the jobs once thought of as desirable, really aren't any longer. Maybe there's more to life than working in some office to make someone else get rich.

Therein lies the value of being young - seeing it all in a way that we can't possibly see.
Well, I'll grant you that. Particularly the "we can't possibly see" part. I think it's been that way since man first headed out on this planet. We haven't destroyed ourselves yet with each succeeding generation although we've certainly developed our ability to do that.

Continuing this aspect of the discussion is getting pretty far away from the original poster's question about whether or not a navigation class would be beneficial. So perhaps with regards to the future of the next generations, the best position to take is "we'll see."

And on the subject of navigation, thanks again for Active Captain. No matter what generation a boater belongs to it's a very cool, creative, and valuable use of technology and is a huge benefit to the decision making process.
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Old 05-12-2015, 02:55 PM   #122
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Jeffrey-- One more thing, sorry, but I didn't want to let it slip by unacknowledged.

As something of a professional storyteller I really like the imagined dialogue and visuals painted by your analogy of the introduction of the sextant to navigation. How cool it would be to know what the reaction was of the traditionalists. And of course it's a perfect parallel to the introduction of new technology today. I remember when the iPad came out and reviewers and other folks were grumbling that "it's just an oversized iPhone but it doesn't even have a phone in it."

Anyway, thanks for your sextant scenario. Playing the scenes in my mind has made my day.
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Old 05-12-2015, 03:38 PM   #123
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i would totally agree with you if the evidence supported it. Unfortunately it doesn't. For a dose of reality, talk to the HR managers, program directors, customers, finance department, etc of the company I work for. They do not share your rosy view of the upcoming workforce, which is one reason we are trying so hard to minimize it as quickly as possible.

I like working with the younger employees in our organization. They have new ideas and very creative ways of looking at things. That part is great. But when it comes time to execute those ideas, to make decisions about implementing their ideas... not a clue.

A good friend of mine is one of the top directors of photography in the commercial production industry in the US. He says exactly the same thing. The young folks entering the field have wonderful ideas and are full of cool new concepts of how to shoot and edit. But they can't execute their ideas to save their lives. As a result, costs skyrocket, deadlines are missed, and the clients are not happy.
We're wondering off topic, but I feel a lot better about the younger workers than I do the employers and that's where I see the problem. People don't come into jobs knowing how to do them. They never did. But companies once had good training programs, developed people, promoted from within. Ultimately they had this professional with 30 years experience and expertise who still had memories of how little he knew when he started. Young employees have traditionally come in perhaps knowing basics, having a base on which to add knowledge, but knowing little about the real world they were entering.

Most companies today just aren't willing to invest in people and train and develop them. Then they look at what one doesn't know and it never crosses their mind they should have taught that to the employee.
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Old 05-12-2015, 03:58 PM   #124
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BandB,
Why train then?
They are so mobile now they won't (on the average) be there in the future so employers see it as a waste of time and money. Rightfully so I'd say but it's tough on the guy that does stay.
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Old 05-12-2015, 04:37 PM   #125
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Equally qualified if their role is limited to bookkeeping, but less qualified in accounting.
My wife is an accountant, one that is highly qualified and valued at her work. Yet I doubt she ever did accounting by hand. Are you saying that accountants like her are less qualified than those that did accounting "by hand"?
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Old 05-12-2015, 05:40 PM   #126
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My wife is an accountant, one that is highly qualified and valued at her work. Yet I doubt she ever did accounting by hand. Are you saying that accountants like her are less qualified than those that did accounting "by hand"?
No, I'm not suggesting by hand. I'm saying learned the basics of accounting. She could do it by hand, I'm sure, if she had to. She understands the entries she's making. I've seen people in small businesses who have no idea. You ask them about something and they say, "I don't know. The Computer did that." I've seen some crazy things done that a trained accountant like your wife would never do. Example: A small business set up in Quickbooks with an "Accountant" setting it all up for them. They were in Florida and yet deducting disability insurance from every employee's check based on the sample set up which I believe was based on New Jersey. They had done this for three years. A good portion of the purchase price of the business had to go to reimbursing all those employees.

It's not the mechanism you use, not computer vs. hand that is important, not electronic vs. paper. It's understanding what you're doing, why you're doing it, and how it works.
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Old 05-12-2015, 05:44 PM   #127
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BandB,
Why train then?
They are so mobile now they won't (on the average) be there in the future so employers see it as a waste of time and money. Rightfully so I'd say but it's tough on the guy that does stay.
Well, I believe in building loyalty and doing it both ways. It starts with employers showing loyalty to employees and then most of the time they will return it. That's been my experience and we do invest considerable time and money in training. The payback is our retention rate is very good.
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Old 05-12-2015, 07:39 PM   #128
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Thanks Marin. Since we've all wandered off topic, there's the Rolls Royce Merlin Engine and the Packard built Merlin. The Canadian aircraft were equipped with the Packard Merlins. The Merlin engine was probably the finest piston engine of the war. The P-51 was quite an average aircraft with the Alison engine. It wasn't until the Merlin engine was installed that it became arguably the finest fighter in the war. And while we're talking about photos, here's my favourite
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Old 05-12-2015, 07:54 PM   #129
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Yes, Rolls was so swamped building Merlins for UK-produced aircraft that when the demand went up as the result of the successful British installation of a Merlin in the Mustang, they licensed Packard to produce Merlins in the US.

Packard also produced a marine V-12 engine, I believe on an assembly line right next to the Merlin line. This was the 4M-2500, the hydroplane-derived engine that was used in the Elco and Higgins PT boats. This was Packard's own engine, not a licensed product. While not an aero engine, it had an aero engine in its heritage, the Liberty engine.

The Merlin was surpassed only by the Griffon, which was essentially a super-Merlin. One of the Griffon's improvements was the use of slide valves.

Surplus Griffon engines were the ultimate piston power for the unlimited hydroplanes that raced on Lake Washington, Detroit, and other venues. Bernie Little, a very wealthy Budweiser distributor, was the owner of the Miss Budweiser series of hydroplanes. When he discovered the value of the Griffon he bought up every single one he could find. Not because he needed them but to keep them out of his competitors' hands.
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Old 05-13-2015, 06:50 AM   #130
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But what's really happening here? People are gradually becoming dumbed down.

Nothing new here look at the Kansas 1895 8th grade graduation exam , and tell me what percentage of Kollege Profs could pass today.

V
Final Exam, 8th Grade. Salina KS, 1895

www.indiana.edu/~p1013447/.../8thgradeexam.htm


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This is the eighth grade final exam from 1895 from Salina, KS. ... 8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, KS 1895 ... Tell what you can of the history of Kansas. 6. Describe ...
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Old 05-13-2015, 10:04 AM   #131
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Well, I believe in building loyalty and doing it both ways. It starts with employers showing loyalty to employees and then most of the time they will return it. That's been my experience and we do invest considerable time and money in training. The payback is our retention rate is very good.
What you are saying is very true, and I see it in my technology industry.

I do not know which started first, employers unwilling to invest in employees or employees that jump to new employers with the skills paid for by their previous employer.

What I do know is that today in my field we pay for and attend allot of skill building training on our own time; that is if we want to be successful. Since the employer has not supported that training we, the employees have no guilt when another employer offers us a better, or better yet the perception of a better situation.

What I see is employers searching out key technology staff and recruiting them, as opposed to building those skills in their existing staff. This makes for a great situation for someone willing to go the extra mile to obtain in demand skills. Unfortunately this also can create some resentment from co-workers who are unwilling to obtain those new skills as technology changes thinking that it is the employers responsibility.
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Old 05-13-2015, 10:31 AM   #132
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FF,
Much of the content of that test is relative to specific information given in class or a specific book or other similar source.

Dosn't take away from your point though. Kids dodn't spend half the day play'in games on an i-phone. They worked on the farms and STILL had time to learn this stuff.
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Old 05-13-2015, 10:36 AM   #133
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As a market becomes more fluid, there is less loyalty. And less need for it. It is inevitable and again, one of those things that was different from the past when switching jobs, doctors, or gas stations was more difficult.

The worker of today doesn't owe any loyalty to their employer except for the contract they're under (which should have been negotiated). They earn what they receive. And the company doesn't deserve loyalty from the employee - they must create a desirable environment to make their employees happy.

It's easy to make the argument that this is a wonderful thing for a civilization because it moves everything towards true freedom.
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Old 05-13-2015, 10:48 AM   #134
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Jeffery S wrote;
"It's easy to make the argument that this is a wonderful thing for a civilization because it moves everything towards true freedom"

Most would probably think this element of evolution is something treasured and loosing it is reason to weep or be sad but your point is excellent. Most want structure and dogma though. True freedom requires a high degree of independence and that's probably lacking to a degree that would not allow it. We would need to be like wild animals alone in the world to be truly free. And then freedom would be limited by the forces of the natural things surrounding us.
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Old 05-13-2015, 11:17 AM   #135
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Guess the thread has come full circle...lose your electronics and you are truly free to navigate any which way........wild and free....
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Old 05-13-2015, 11:18 AM   #136
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BandB,
Why train then?
They are so mobile now they won't (on the average) be there in the future so employers see it as a waste of time and money. Rightfully so I'd say but it's tough on the guy that does stay.
I think that Eric has a damn good point. We pondered that exact question over 25 years ago in my own company. The result was an emphasis on specializing the manufacturing process. (ie) Instead of training a tool maker that could do it all, we trained expert milling machine operators, lathe hands, grinders, (surface, centerless, etc.) We could pay them more money because of their increased productivity & they couldn't move to another tool & die shop for 25 cents more an hour! They were not journeyman tool makers! When the workload picked up, we hired apprentices and "specialized" them.

With the advent of CNC machines, the type of person we were looking for completely changed. Now, we had need of basic mechanics with computer skills to operate all the CNCs and robots!

So, when Eric asks the question "Why train?" I think he meant it in the context of training employees that could do it all. With that in mind, I think he's absolutely correct and I actually experienced that in my own company!
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Old 05-13-2015, 11:48 AM   #137
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As a market becomes more fluid, there is less loyalty. And less need for it. It is inevitable and again, one of those things that was different from the past when switching jobs, doctors, or gas stations was more difficult.

The worker of today doesn't owe any loyalty to their employer except for the contract they're under (which should have been negotiated). They earn what they receive. And the company doesn't deserve loyalty from the employee - they must create a desirable environment to make their employees happy.

It's easy to make the argument that this is a wonderful thing for a civilization because it moves everything towards true freedom.
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I think that Eric has a damn good point. We pondered that exact question over 25 years ago in my own company. The result was an emphasis on specializing the manufacturing process. (ie) Instead of training a tool maker that could do it all, we trained expert milling machine operators, lathe hands, grinders, (surface, centerless, etc.) We could pay them more money because of their increased productivity & they couldn't move to another tool & die shop for 25 cents more an hour! They were not journeyman tool makers! When the workload picked up, we hired apprentices and "specialized" them.

With the advent of CNC machines, the type of person we were looking for completely changed. Now, we had need of basic mechanics with computer skills to operate all the CNCs and robots!

So, when Eric asks the question "Why train?" I think he meant it in the context of training employees that could do it all. With that in mind, I think he's absolutely correct and I actually experienced that in my own company!
It appears that the two of you are supporting the exact opposite positions.

While Jeffery is suporting the "free agent" concept, Codger is supporting the "make the employees dependent on you" concept.

Myself, as a "worker" I REALLY enjoy the "free agent" concept of employment. I take personal responsiblity for keeping my skills current, relevant, and in demand, never asking an employer to do that for me. That gives me the freedom to take those skills to another employeer for whatever reason I choose.

Employers today really love this kind of employee. The ability to hire someone that can come in and perform well from day one has allot of alure to an employer. It also in my opinion forces employers to not only pay employees better, it forces them to have "nice" "happy" work places. Thats because in todays world an in demand worker will be gone before lunch if the employer does not treat them well.

I know lots of people that are dependant on a single employer because their skills have stagnated over time. Many of them hate their jobs, and their employeers, and their dependance, yet they are unwilling to go the effort to stay relevant in the workplace. So they end up in a cycle of bitching about their situation, unhappiness, etc...which leads to lackluster performance, which I suspect probably results in lackluster performance by their employers in their competitive market.

Seems to me that happy employes that strive to keep up their skills, results in higher productivity, which in turn makes their employeers more successful as well.
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Old 05-13-2015, 11:55 AM   #138
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Yeah. But you can only be a free agent if you have pertinent experience, the smarts, and motivation to pull it off. I too am a free agent, but not everyone can be.

Building a high quality employee, that undoubtedly will be shared by different employers is the underlying strength of industry and countries in general.
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Old 05-13-2015, 11:56 AM   #139
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Funny...being in the part time market....I see some but not a huge change over the last 20 years.

Good employees are just that and good employers are just that.

The problem is when someone comes along and substitutes management over leadership..and things start to go bad.

No different in the military or the civilian world....when bean counters override good leadership....things start to fall apart.

That is good if leadership still recognizes the bottom line....

....which is what I think Northern spy just alluded too....identify which employee or position is what and make sure you fill it, reward it or see that it really is an anybody job.
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Old 05-13-2015, 12:00 PM   #140
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The problem is when someone comes along and substitutes management over leadership..and things start to go bad.
That is a great summation of why our latest product program was the worst program in my company's history and why the previous program was the best.
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