Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-18-2009, 07:09 AM   #41
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,631
RE: My engines are better than yours

The theoretical answer will always be heat. Heat is energy and that is what we are seeking. We turn up the heat, we get more power. You are also assuming a catastrophic failure. Some engines just wear out....smoke...troubles starting due to lack of compression,etc. In fact, I would say that this is most likely what happens to most. ANyway, you force more air and fuel into an engine, the combustion process is more violent....simple as that. And that puts stress on the engine parts associated with combustion.
__________________
Advertisement

Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 10:12 AM   #42
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,631
RE: My engines are better than yours

Just for fun I went on Yatchworld to the "advanced search" section and typed in "Cummins" as a keyword and also limited it to the USA. Almost every boat that came up that is over 10 years old has been "repowered". Now that does not state what was in there before, but it is interesting. I couldn't find any boats over 20 years old(or even 15) that had CUmmins as "original power".

Now contrary to that, all Lehmans the come up are orignal power and most are well over 20 years old. SOme DD could be in this category as well.

As I said, this is likely because Cummins are put in boats that are meant to plane so they are working much harder.

Anyway, very unscuentific but something to think about.
__________________

Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 10:50 AM   #43
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
RE: My engines are better than yours

Cummins did not enter the marine market "big time" until about 20 years ago. Since then they have grown into the dominant player with little sign of abatement.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 12:01 PM   #44
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,631
My engines are better than yours

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

Cummins did not enter the marine market "big time" until about 20 years ago. Since then they have grown into the dominant player with little sign of abatement.
I do understand that.* I am not bagging on CUmmins.* Like I said, I am the consumate shopper on yachtworld and it always struck me.* I will put it in terms of hours.* You just don't see many 2000+ Cummins out there.* I do know hours and years are relevant.* Anyway, I think your post should read the 6BT*based engines were*not around until 20 years ago.* Cummins did make marine engines but the 6BT came on the scene about 20 years ago and was the beginning of the "domination" of the marine market by them.* Would I buy a boat with Cummins engines in them....absolutely.* WOuld I buy a planing boat with 2000+ hours Cummins engines in them....absolutely not.* Would I buy a slow boat with 2000+ hours CUmmins engines in it.....not really sure.* I would prefer Lehmans in that scenario....even Perkins.* Simply because they have proven themselves over and over.* IMO, Cummins has not.


-- Edited by Baker at 13:03, 2009-01-19
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 12:57 PM   #45
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
RE: My engines are better than yours

Baker:
.
You raise a good point - there are few +2000 hour Cummins engines out there in pleasure use "fast boats." Fast boats often die as weight is added and props*become overloaded. To keep costs down Sea Ray et al underpower and with added gear fuel etc early demise occurs. Even if propped right, at a pleasure craft level of 100 or so hours per year it is tough to get to 2000 fast boat hours before your engine has given up because of bolt on failures. Boat sitting time*can be more relevant than engine hours as HX crud up and other systems wear out just sitting there.

The best example of +2000 go fast hours would be the commercial sport fishermen who seldom sell their boats. Tony Athens would tell you that at 500 hours per year in SoCal and with good maintenance no problem getting 4000+ hours on a Cummins "fast boat."

On our trawlers, it is tough to wear out any engine at 1400 -1800 RPM assuming good maintenance and close to right propping. On a go fast diesel at 2600-3000 RPM, close to right propping is not good enough.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 04:59 PM   #46
Veteran Member
 
surveyor1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 42
My engines are better than yours

I posted the original question and thought I'd chime in.
The discussion has been very interesting albeit somewhat esoteric at times.
What I've distilled from it so far is as follows:
Lehmans: good (I concur based on my experience with Ford 2715E block)
Perkins: good
Volvos: not so much, expensive parts
Cummins: maybe in certain conditions
Yanmar: no comment
Mercedes: no comment
Detroit: I'm confused
Deere: no comment
Oops, forgot Cats: good (I think)
Probably forgot others.

-- Edited by surveyor1 at 18:05, 2009-01-19
surveyor1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 05:19 PM   #47
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
My engines are better than yours

You are a hard sell, John baker! Sunchaser is absolutely right with his comments. But to make a list that Cats don't even appear on is mind boggling! Lehmans over Cats? We are talking about engines you can still buy aren't we? I know there are a ton of guys out there that are driving Lehmans and love them, just as there are guys still driving 1965 Mustangs but come on, there are more Cummins going into new sport fishers than any other brand. Of course Lehmans are good engines! But let's talk about the last two decades at least!* <grin>

Cummins 330B Powered


-- Edited by SeaHorse II at 18:22, 2009-01-19
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	photo library - 809.jpg
Views:	79
Size:	130.6 KB
ID:	878  
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 09:13 PM   #48
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,714
RE: My engines are better than yours

1st. Surveyor 1. We should start engine stuff under " Power Systems "
2nd. FF, Marin and others were ragin on me about Lehmans being tractor engines and could't take regular running at 75% power. Now Lehmans are " good " and Cummins are questionable just because Baker made a subjective observation. Most industrial engines are run by the book. The book says under what conditions an engine can be run. Iv'e seen many of these " books " and I don't recall any that stated thier engines can't be run at loads and speeds near maximum. I've never seen or heard of a manual saying that much longer engine life can be had by running at half throttle. However I've never seen a manual for a Yanmar that makes well over 1 hp per cu in or a 275 hp lehman ( w 380 Ford ). I took a 4-107 Perkins out of my Willard and installed a 2007 Mitsubishi S4L 2 . The old Perkins was a good engine but I was reading about it in 1960 when I was 20 years old. It probably was an old WWII tractor engine and the Lehman probably is too. If I'm being asked to belive that the old Lehman is better than the very modern and most popular marine deisel in recient times ? I agree with you John .. these HO engines must be making monster heat making more hp per cu in*than a 57 Corvete. Youv'e got a fast boat John, what power have you got .. HO Yanmar? How hard do you run it ?

Eric Henning
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 02:02 AM   #49
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
My engines are better than yours

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

If I'm being asked to belive that the old Lehman is better than the very modern and most popular marine deisel in recient times ?
I, for one, would never suggest that. If they were, then nobody would have progressed beyond them. It's sort of like saying the 450hp Pratt & Whitney R985 Wasp Jr. (made before and during WWII) is the best aviation engine ever. These old engines can be extremely reliable and long-lived but only if you operate them in the spirit in which they were designed and made. Fairly conservatively. Use high power when you need it (in the case of the P&W you can use full power for one minute), but operate them conservatively most of the time.

The current generation of marine diesels make the old Lehmans and Perkins look pretty crude, not only in terms of technology but in performance. Their operating parameters are completely different from the old thumpers.

I would never build a new boat and put a Lehman 120 in it. If I wanted that sort of power and performance--- if you can consider an FL120 even HAS performance--- there are several brand new, modern techology engines that will deliver that with WAY less maintenance and MUCH longer service intervals than the FL120. I would choose one of them, not the old Lehman.

But since there are so many boats around with old Lehmans, Perkins, etc., the fact they have these old engines is no reason to dump the boat (or re-engine it). You just have to be willing to run the boat like it was 1955

-- Edited by Marin at 03:05, 2009-01-20
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 04:58 AM   #50
Guru
 
Tidahapah's Avatar
 
City: Mooloolaba
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Tidahapah
Vessel Model: Bert Ellis Timber motor cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,779
RE: My engines are better than yours

Ok Guys , I have been following this but not as close as I should have.
may be we Aussies & Kiwis are a bit backward but we still install old engines (recon units ) in new boats.
You would be suprised at the number of gardner 6LXs and 6 LXBs that are still being fitted to new build displacement cruisers down south of the equator.
It has something to do with their reliability, capacity, fuel economy and the fact they do not rely on IC cards and parts are readily available world wide.
Bit like the old Fords hard to give them up.
Benn
MV Tidahapah
Tidahapah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 05:43 AM   #51
Guru
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Vessel Name: Anastasia III
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,716
RE: My engines are better than yours

I like the simplicity of my Lehman 135. No computer chips to corrode or get killed by a lightning strike, no "high tech" stuff hanging on it to fail, just a good old strong engine that will run forever if you take care of it.
Keith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 07:09 AM   #52
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,530
RE: My engines are better than yours

I like the simplicity of my Lehman 135. No computer chips to corrode or get killed by a lightning strike, no "high tech" stuff hanging on it to fail, just a good old strong engine that will run forever if you take care of it.


All true enough , BUT most of these are run at 2 or 3gph 35 -45hp, not at 135 .

To gain efficiency a boat could simply use a modern 60hp rated engine and lower the fuel burn .

Probably longer life too, if maintained.

Weather a 3 gph fuel burn is WORTH improving , is probably only of interest to a replacement scenario.

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 11:11 AM   #53
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
RE: My engines are better than yours

The problem is that a current 60HP engine would not be a simple engine. 30,000#'s + being pushed by 135 or 270 HP may not be the most efficient set-up but it is certainly not a bad set up. We are about to hit 4000 hours on our 135's and they are as strong as you could ever want. On a new build I would consider a fresh set of Lehmans. Or what about the American Diesel engines?*http://www.americandieselcorp.comThese should be as good as the Lehmans with plenty of support. That might be the best choice

Steve
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	dscf2951.jpg
Views:	79
Size:	223.8 KB
ID:	879  
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 11:24 AM   #54
Curmudgeon
 
BaltimoreLurker's Avatar
 
City: Stoney Creek, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moon Dance
Vessel Model: 1974 34' Marine Trader Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,629
RE: My engines are better than yours

Quote:
Forkliftt wrote:
On a new build I would consider a fresh set of Lehmans. Or what about the American Diesel engines?*http://www.americandieselcorp.comThese should be as good as the Lehmans with plenty of support. That might be the best choice
Steve
Steve:

I couldn't agree more.* A simple Lehman engine was one of the boat buying criteria for me.

In your photo of the engines, what is the small diameter black hose running (it appears) from the injection pump to under the coolant reservoir?* An oiler mod?

- Darrell

*
BaltimoreLurker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 11:35 AM   #55
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
RE: My engines are better than yours

Darrell,The blue hose you are seeing with the triple clamps I believe to be the fuel return line. Notice it continues near the coolant recovery tank. The 135's don't require the oil change maintenance that the 120 has.
Steve
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 12:13 PM   #56
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: My engines are better than yours

The problem--- not that it's anything major--- is that the old engines like Lehmans, etc. are not very efficient. Yes, at low power setting typically used in cruise the burn 2-3 gph. But as an engine they don't do as good a job of getting the most out of the fuel they use than a more modern engine.

They also pollute more, particularly when cold. I suspect everyone with an FL120 has seen the big sheen of unburned fuel that spreads out behind the boat after it's started and is warming up. Modern engine makers are not allowed to make engines that do this anymore, at least not in the US and Europe.

An FL120 has some design and technology drawbacks, too, which is to be expected with a design that is more than 40 years old. The injection pump that is fitted to most of them needs its oil changed every 50 hours. The Lehman-designed drive unit that powers the raw water pump is a crap design (told to me by the person who designed it). The fix for that particular problem is to get rid of the original drive/pump unit and replace it with a new Johnson pump, which we did the other year. But the fact is there are more efficient and easier-to-maintain engines than the FL120 today.

One of the most popular Lehman replacements, at least in the PNW, is a Lugger engine. Six cylinders, naturally aspirated, about 150 hp. Northern Lights/Lugger has put hundreds of these engines in Grand Banks and I assume other makes as well.

There is the engine supplied by American Diesel as a drop-in replacement for the FL120 although the engine it is based on is quite a bit different than the old Dorset engine Lehman Bros. used way back when. From what I have read on the GB owners forum, some people buy these if they have to replace a failed engine in a twin that was powered with FL120s or 135s. GB owners who are replacing both engines or the one engine in a single seem to go for engines from Lugger, John Deere, or Cummins.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 01:14 PM   #57
Guru
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Vessel Name: Anastasia III
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,716
RE: My engines are better than yours

I'll trade higher reliability for a little less "perfect" any time.
Keith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 01:47 PM   #58
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
My engines are better than yours

Quote:
Keith wrote:

I'll trade higher reliability for a little less "perfect" any time.



I agree with that.* But I've not seen any evidence that today's generation of engines, particularly those that deliver similar power and performance as the older*"trawler-type"*engines, are any less reliable.*

There is a very large charter fleet of Grand Banks boats in our marina.* Some of the boats in their fleet have been there for the ten years we've owned our boat.* They are booked every summer and more recently a number of them have been used every year*in "Mother Goose" group charters up the Passage to SE Alaska, six or so weeks in Alaska, and then back down again.* So these boats are chalking up a lot of hours every year.* Some of them are powered with Cummins 210/220hp*engines, some with Cats,and some with John Deeres.* So far as I've heard from the people I know who work for the charter company, the engines in this boats are doing great.

Now the lightweight*high output engines that are used in larger planing-type boats I don't know about as*I don't know anyone with this type of boat.

I'm not knocking Lehmans and the like--- we have two FL120s in our boat and they have served us very well for the last ten years and I like them very much.* But if I was building a new boat, why not take advantage of what some--- probably not all--- of the new generation diesels provide in terms of efficiency, lower operating costs, and reliability?

There seems to be a belief here that new engines like Cummins, Cats, etc. are crapping out left and right with 18 hours on them.* From my observation, this is not true.* The diesel engine shop in Bellingham works on everything from Cats to Luggers to Deeres to Lehmans to Detroits.* And from conversations I've had with the owner, the failure rates of all the types of engines they work on, old or new,*is very similar (low), with the exception of the Detroits which they say pretty much run until the boat around them falls apart.

And, he said, most engine failures regardless of the type of engine, old or new,*or whether it has manual or electronic controls, are the result of operator error, either in the operation of the engines themselves or in poor or neglected maintenance.
-- Edited by Marin at 14:51, 2009-01-20
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 03:06 PM   #59
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
RE: My engines are better than yours

Marin-*Sounds like the GB's have seen very good service out of the Cummins, Cats and Deeres. When those engines see 20-25 years of service, sometimes with a year or 2 of neglect and unuse, then I think we can compare them to the conditions that many older trawlers experience.*
Industrial IC lifttrucks have been slower than many other engine applications to be required to lower their emmissions (probably due to lower HP ratings) and both LP and diesel powered machines have*been very dependable in my experience. Tier II and Tier III EEC engines are now out. The problem is that when a problem occurs it is usually intermittant and electrical in nature. Self diagnostics and having the correct handset to access fault codes can sometimes be invaluable. But sometimes not.**
In real world boating conditions- where you leave the dock and the advice of your dock buddies- and put you and your loved ones safety in the hands of your skills, talents and decisions- the stakes get higher.*
With enough training and spare parts I am sure anyone could learn to TS a defective fuel pressure sensor or replace a defective speed potentiometer. But I would rather have to swap out a 10 micron Racor or rig an electric fuel pump to supply fuel to a mechanical injector pump any day. The marine environment is very hard on electrical connections as we all know. With EEC systems the amount of connections is many- so opportunity for failure is increased. Just my humble opinion. You can probably gueass that I am off this afternoon taking a sibling to the doc- thus the wordy opinion!!
Steve
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 04:12 PM   #60
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,631
My engines are better than yours

Good discussion for sure. Willy, I quantified my statements over and over. I am not trying to convince anyone....I was only stating an OPINION based on my observations. I even admitted to being "emotional" about it.

I do Have a 213CID Yanmar(4LHA-STP) that produces 240hp!!!! It has 520 hours on it now and it runs like a top. I run the piss out of it(I mean that in a good way....I do use it...not abuse it). It is rated at 240hp at 3300RPMs with a one hour limitation. Max continuous is 190hp at 3100RPMS.....pretty steep power curve there at the end. My "default" RPM is 2800 which yields 15kts at a little over 4gph.....pretty damn efficient if you ask me! My wife works for a yacht service company who happens to be a Yanmar dealer and authorized service center. Her boss speaks very highly of this engine for whatever that is worth. Would I be suspicious of this engine at 2000 hours???....Quite possibly. It hasn't been around very long(the 240hp version of the 4LHA-xxx)....maybe 10 years. So it doesn't have much history. I can honestly say that I have never heard of a Yanmar failing....I am sure they have, but I have not heard of it.* They are relatively new to the higher horsepower market.Someone said no mention of Cats.....I did mention them as my choice for a fast planing boat....followed by Yanmar. Cat doesn't make any "small" engines. ANd I did overlook Lugger....which I think very highly of....quite possibly my first choice on a new build slow boat. If I am not mistaken, Lugger uses a lot of Deere platforms as well as Toyota....hard to go wrong there.* I think it was an article in PMM where they had a chart of all the different engines and what the underlying platform was.* It seems that Lugger is more of a "marinizer" of diesel engines rather than a builder.* That may have changed as times and technology has changed.* My wife's company is also a NL/Lugger dealer so I will ask.

And Willy, I do share your love of the Isuzus. One of the best (small)diesel engines made IMO. I remember riding the water taxi in Vancouver and asking the Captain what kind of engine he had....Isuzu.....said the operator gets 30,000+ hours out of those little engines. Obviously, they are well maintained and run all day every day.

-- Edited by Baker at 17:18, 2009-01-20
__________________

Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Painting engines Baggiolini General Maintenance 34 08-21-2012 11:37 PM
Izuzu diesel engines motion30 Power Systems 16 12-15-2011 04:22 PM
Gasoline Engines in a 43 Budds Outlet Power Systems 84 01-09-2011 07:32 AM
Gardner Engines tangent Classifieds 5 11-23-2010 04:57 AM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012