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Old 01-13-2009, 11:39 AM   #21
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RE: My engines are better than yours

Like FF said, Volvos are usually a bit cheaper up front but more expensive to maintain. I personally am not a fan of them if nothing other than emotional reasons. If I had a choice of 2 boats, one with Volvos and one with "other", I would probably choose other. I also am "emotionally" against DD....simply because I don't understand them.....naturally aspirated but with a supercharger????!!!!! I know they are good engines but they just don't look right to me when I look at them....they don't look familiar. There is "****" everywhere. I wanna see block...injecotr pump and fuel lines to injectors....heat exchanger and exhaust maybe with Turbo and requisite plumbing. That is what a diesel looks like to me. A DD does not look that way. Volvos would not be a "deal killer" if the boat will be doing displacement speeds. I would not choose them if it was a planing boat where the engines would be working hard. Cummins seems to be a popular engine but again....I am the consumate shopper on Yachtworld and you just don't see very many Cummins with high time on them(and I surely would not buy a 3000+ hour Cummins). It always seems like you see these higher time Cummins boats with one engine "freshly rebuilt". Sounds to me that their lifespan is right around 2000 hours....and it is likely because Cummins are put in higher speed boats that are working hard. I really wish the naturally aspirated 115hp version of this engine were more popular. You see it ocassionally but not often.

My preference for a displacement boat would be the Lehmans followed by Deere and then may a "properly sized" Yanmar. A faster boat and I would choose Caterpillar followed by Yanmar.
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Old 01-13-2009, 03:20 PM   #22
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RE: My engines are better than yours

Baker,

Good stuff,
thank you.
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Old 01-14-2009, 04:16 PM   #23
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RE: My engines are better than yours

Good God John,

How can you say that .. only 2000 hrs? In this day and age even a piss poor engine should last 5 - 6000 hrs. What happens to them?
I think most of you guys don't like or trust " off brands "*that aren't extreemly popular .. a mistake I think. My favorite engine is Isuzu and I think highly of the Mitsu in my boat as well. If there's any truth to what John says I'll have to stop saying " all engines are good .. just pic the one that suits your needs "
Volvos cheap? .. I didn't know that .. but I didn't look at them.
John .. how can you say a DD is naturally aspirated??? They are a 2-stroke and won't even start without the blower. Any engine that makes such sweet and wonderful sounds as a " Screemin Jimmie " ( the blower does make a bit too much " sound " ) I would tollerate even if it were ugly .. and there not .. just a bit strange - no different. I suppose if the right rototiller would present itself you would consider it a peice of art .. indeed very emotional.
I can be emotional too. I went for a day trip out of Juneau on a 54' steel sight seeing boat with twin 8VDD engines and I stood at the transom much of the time listening to the*sweet song from the exhaust. Each engine*having as many power strokes as a 16 cyl 4-stroke engine. There was a time when almost all logging equipment and diesel*boats about 40' were powered by the*famous two stroke Detroit Diesel. Emotional .. no?

Eric Henning
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Old 01-14-2009, 05:30 PM   #24
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RE: My engines are better than yours

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

John .. how can you say a DD is naturally aspirated??? They are a 2-stroke and won't even start without the blower.
As I understand it, the "blower" on a naturally aspirated DD does a different job than the blower on a 4-stroke engine.* The DD's blower is there to evacuate the combustion chamber of the gasses left after combustion.* It isn't compressing the air in the sense that a turbocharger/supercharger is on a 4-stroke.

In fact, while every DD has a "blower," I believe there are NA DDs and Turbocharged DDs on which there is a true turbocharger that feeds more air to the engine.* The turbocharger is in addition to the evactuation "blower" that all DDs have.

If I have mis-stated the workings of the DD I appologize. I've never run one or had one--- I'm just parrotting from*memory*what a good friend who's had two boats with 8V-71s told me.
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:11 PM   #25
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RE: My engines are better than yours

My Perkins 4-236 sounds pretty sweet every time I crank it. Just chugs right along.
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:37 PM   #26
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My engines are better than yours

"If I have mis-stated the workings of the DD I appologize."

You got it right. The blower on a 2 stroke DD is there to scavenge the cylinder of exhaust and refill it with fresh air. The blower supplies just over 1.3 times the cylinder volume on a 71 series engine, the excess is there to cool the exhaust valves.

The blower supplies slightly over atmospheric pressure to the airbox, it has to to overcome exhaust backpressure to scavenge the cylinder, but it is not a supercharger, it does not provide boost in order to produce more power. The versions which have a blower and*turbocharger will provide boost and produce more power.

Natural and normally aspirated are terms that can cause some confusion. Natural aspiration is*how most 4 stroke engines operate, the open intake valve allows atmospheric pressure to fill the cylinder as the piston moves down. When the valve closes the pressure in the cylinder is less than atmospheric because of inlet losses. Volumetric efficiency is less than 100 percent.

Normally aspirated engines may*use a blower of some sort to supply sufficient air to scavenge the cylinder and provide a fresh air charge of*equivalent weight to sea level density. That is the object of all those "turbonormalizing" setups on Bonanzas and Mooneys, they use a turbo to provide just enough pressure to overcome intake system losses and in the case of aircraft, density loss with altitude. Normalized and supercharged engines are greater than 100 percent volumetrically efficient ... their cylinders fill with greater weight of air than an equal volume at atmospheric pressure.

There are two turbocharging systems on the old detroits, one uses a turbo that discharges into the blower inlet, and another that incorporates a "bypass" valve that lets the turbocharger discharge go directly to the airbox above a certain power level.*Doing that unloads the blower and reduces the power required to drive it as well as boosting inlet pressure to make even more power.

A third system used on larger GM products, the EMD 2 strokes used on ships, large generators,*and locomotives, uses a gear driven centrifigual blower with an over-running clutch. When the engine output is sufficiently high to produce enough exhaust gas to drive the blower, it becomes a turbocharger and disconnects from the drive system.

GM/DD/EMD got pretty clever at getting more power out of the same basic engine by playing with charge air systems. Sorry to go so long but*I think it is*an interesting subject ...

-- Edited by RickB at 21:38, 2009-01-14

-- Edited by RickB at 21:44, 2009-01-14
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:42 PM   #27
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RE: My engines are better than yours

Rick,

There is no confusion about the terms normally aspirated and naturally aspirated .. they are one and the same except that normally aspirated is incorrect.*I understand what you said about aircraft engines and normally aspirated may apply there but on a boating*forum normally aspirated has no place.*On any marine engine brochure the term naturally aspirated will be used indicating that the engine breaths naturally as a result of atmospheric pressure and the downward plunging piston.*Since the intake*ports are at the bottom of the cylinder on a 2 stroke*DD*intake air must be pushed into the cylinder by the blower.**Many people don't realize that there are holes around the bottom of the cylinder for intake air and the valves (*that look like 4 stroke engine*valves )*at the top of the cylinder*are only for exhaust. Because it scavenges so much air the DD could probably be said to be internally air cooled, however every stroke is a power stroke so the DD probably needs the cooling effect due to the increased heat.*
Gulf Comanche, Yes, our little 4 cyl 4 stroke engines may sound* sweet and even but the big old DD sounds AWSOME!

Eric Henning***
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:07 PM   #28
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My engines are better than yours

Willy, we have been thru this before ref the longevity issue. I challenge you to search yachrworld and see how many high time cummins engines are out ther.....not many
Draw your own conclusion.

-- Edited by Baker at 18:09, 2009-01-15
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Old 01-16-2009, 04:10 AM   #29
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RE: My engines are better than yours

" search yachrworld and see how many high time cummins engines are out ther.....not many"

Could as easily be initial cost or difficulty with builder- dealer network vs engine reliability .

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Old 01-16-2009, 09:29 AM   #30
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RE: My engines are better than yours

John:

I suggest you search the number of Cummins engines that are on the road. Trucks, motorhomes, etc. More than any other engine I can think of. Please don't throw rocks at my engine of choice. (Having had most of the other brands over the past 20 years.)

Walt

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Old 01-16-2009, 12:11 PM   #31
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RE: My engines are better than yours

I think the question is not so much which engine has the better design, but how easy it is to fix and maintain. I've known a couple of owners with Volvos who complain loudly that volvo never created an infrastructure in the US, so parts have to come from overseas - with long delays as a result. I've always been a fan of Cats, for the same reason mentioned above regarding Cummins - thousands on the roads, and I can walk into a Cat dealer at most any city of any size and get parts (as well as a computer record of the serial numbers of my engines).
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Old 01-16-2009, 02:59 PM   #32
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RE: My engines are better than yours

John Baker,

Please forgive me. I really didn't mean to insult you but after reading my own post I can see how I did. Sorry mate.
I don't doubt your observation but I'm not interested enough in Yacht World to do research, however, on reflection I'll bet you may have*made the observation about Cummins just because there are soooo many of them out there. Also most all yacht engines don't last anywhere near thier expected lifespan because they sit idle so much and experience neglect and other misuse. I'll bet if you kept score long enough you'd find that about as many other makes with 2 - 3000 hrs had one engine rebuilt also. I drove a GMC Astro 95 w a 335hp Cummins for at least 8 years and I don't ever remember anything going wrong with it except a blown hose ( I saw the steam in the mirror ). When I say " ther'e all good engines " I'd like to be right for several reasons and/or I'd like to know if I'm wrong too. Lastly .. if they are really droping like flies I'd like to know why .. what is the weak link?

Eric Henning
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Old 01-16-2009, 07:46 PM   #33
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RE: My engines are better than yours

No sweat Willy and no offense taken. The only reason for my short answer on my previous post was that I was posting via a PDA and it isn't all that fun doing that. So I had to leave out any tact and go straight to the point. My point was and FF I think has made it best, is that there is really no free lunch in the longevity of engines. That Cummins engine is a fairly "small" displacement engine. In it's NA form it produces 115hp. I LOVE THAT PARTICULAR ENGINE AND WISH IT WERE MORE POPULAR. That is an emotional statement because I do believe the Cummins 6BT to be a great engine in it's own right...I can only Imangine the NA version. But 5.9 liters all the way out to 450hp(most I have seen from this engine....maybe there are more powerful versions) and you are giveing up engine life...it really is as simple as that. If you have a powerful engine of the 6BT and you run the piss out of it, it will not last you very long. You take that same engine and go easy on it, it will likely provide more service life(in hours). I think the 210hp version ofthis engine will provide many many years of truoble free service. You start increasng te horsepower, and you start increasng the "trouble" and decreasing the longevity....nothing mysterious about that. That s my point. My opinion is formed by evey higher time Cummins boat I have seen has at least one rebuilt engine on it and likely 2 with the seller boasting that fact. Now take the 3208. It is 210hp in its NA version. That engine will last forever much like the Lehmans and Perkins. A popular version of the 3208T has 375hp. I have seen those engines well into the 4000 hour range and still providing good service. I would say the 375hp version of the Cat is synonomous to the 210hp version of the Cummins....both mildly turbocarged but not stretching it. When you force enough air and fuel to quadruple the power of the NA version, then I think you are asking for a shortened life span of that engine.

And as far as the reference to "normally aspirated" Detroits, I was just going with what the industry calls them and actually yuo made my whole point.....that I think they are "wierd" when you call an engine NA when it actually has a supercharger on it. It was a tremendous surprise to me when I learned that about 5 years ago. And my added point was that it is just one more thing to go wrong with it....and they don't look "normal" to me. But as we all know they are fine engines....and yes, I do engine the noise they make....the smoke....not so much.

It's all good brutha Willy!!!

John
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Old 01-17-2009, 03:54 AM   #34
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My engines are better than yours

Smoke from a DD is either a cold engine (white smoke) ,

a hugely high time or ignored engine with low compression (darker white , even at 180F coolant)

or black from an overloaded -or over fueled (wrong injectors for operating rpm) .

If the engine is pre 1950 era and has origonal H rather than later N injectors a bit of dark in the smoke at light loads is normal.

They may leak like oil wells if serviced by lousy ignorant "mechanics" ,

but should only smoke on initial start till the coolant is over 100F if in OK condition.

IF I were looking for a replacement engine for a small boat the International DT 466 would be first choice.

Mechanical injection , $750 rebuild kits (2x a year on sale) SAE bellhousing and an engine with closer to farm tractor build than heavy industrial build.

That means little problems from running a 200-300 rated engine at 3 GPH (50hp) for days on end.

Cheaper than most anythingat* the wreckers of equal size , and almost impossible to beat in hassle free service life in a boat.

-- Edited by FF at 04:59, 2009-01-17
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:53 AM   #35
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RE: My engines are better than yours

Agreed on the 466.* It's the same basic engine that's in my F250 Ford.* It spends most of its time running at about 1400 RPM and 3 GPH @ 55 mph, plus many hours idling in traffic.* I'd guess it's got 4000 hours on it, doesn't use a drop of oil between changes, and doesn't smoke on startup.
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Old 01-17-2009, 01:59 PM   #36
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My engines are better than yours

Yes John,

This all seems related to the underloading issue. I think an engine should be worked fairly hard but not flogged. Iv'e heard numerous times about the 380 Fords, Lehmans, Perkins ect that had the basic 120 hp engine followed by numerous " hopped up " versions of more than double the output followed by bad reputations of short life and trouble. Like the Cummins talk .. I wish I knew the weak link. What kills engines that get overstressed and overworked? We know how underloading, misuse and neglect can kill engines but whats the weak link for overloading? Heat, pressure and weak parts come to mind but what are the specifics? Specifics such as " if you over work a Yanmar 6_ _ _ _ the valves will warp " or " the rings will stick and let too much heat into the piston skirt causing scoring of the piston and cylinder walls ". When I was a young dude we used to " throw a rod " assuming a rod got weak and broke. But it may have been a stuck piston causing extreem pressure on the rod causing breakage. The problem with our marine engines must be heat because most of the engine manuals say you can run an engine*at WOT for X # of min .. at X - _ for considerably longer and at X - _ _ _ indefinatly. It seems to be a time thing instead of a pressure or force issue. Does anybody know what the weak links are? There should be many as it brobably varies from engine to engine but I'm convinced there is a common base for all the trouble.
Now Marin should come forth with some guesses, ideas, fiction,fact followed by huge amounts of Boeing engineering and marketing stuff arriving who knows where .. Spot on, some truth to it but no cigar or what the dell is this guy talkin about. I think Marin just loves to think .. on paper.
Then comes FF. Here we'll have a 1200 word download of extreem stuff by some wako, or perhaps a very few sage words like " just use nylon " Then he may share with us what his fathers friend told him sittin on the fender of a 36 Hudson under a shade tree or what he heard in a bar accross the street from some shipyards. Or perhaps he shares with us a gem that he learned from all those years of serious boating and boat building experience. Or his sentence structure will fail and his use of liberal ( not political ) and obscure acronyms cloud the gems with cod knows what.
Oh yes .. theres Ricky, Crouching under a board by an old sailboat talling up any BS FF may sling at us dummies. The cat sometimes catches the mouse and FF does give Ricky plenty of opportunities to pounce. What did we do before we had Ricky .. go down many myesterious paths of falshoods, untruths and BS? I hope Rick gets tired, drops the name calling*and just gives us his version of the truth .. I'm all for the truth .. I'm a Sagitairian.

Eric Henning

-- Edited by nomadwilly at 15:02, 2009-01-17
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Old 01-17-2009, 02:58 PM   #37
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My engines are better than yours

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:Now Marin should come forth with some guesses, ideas, fiction,fact followed by huge amounts of Boeing engineering and marketing stuff arriving who knows where .. Spot on, some truth to it but no cigar or what the dell is this guy talkin about. I think Marin just loves to think .. on paper.
I don't want to disappoint you, Eric, so here are my thoughts. All the things you said are probably true. Heat causes loss of lubrication, moving parts start to bind, and this puts stress on other parts and they break. I also believe that the high loadings from too-powerful combustion cycles puts stresses on parts that were not designed or built to take these loads over long periods of time and they eventually crack or catastrophically break.

But here is my real suggestion. With the exception of people who actually might be in the engine business, what you're going to get from this forum are educated or not-so-educated guesses as to the causes of engine failure. Or perhaps a parrotting of what someone has learned from a person who IS in the engine business.


Neither of these are insults, it's simply because the majority of us--- if not all of us--- don't work in the marine engine field.


So I would suggest that to get meaningful answers to your very legitimate question as to why engines actually fail, you contact someone who has to know this stuff to get a paycheck. Call or e-mail the engineering department at companies like Northern Lights/Lugger. Unlike Cat or Cummins, NL is small enough to perhaps answer a question from an individual like yourself. I have a good friend who has worked at NL for some 30 years or so, and I have always gotten precise answers from him when I have had specific questions about diesels in general or the specific engines in our boat. So I would say it's worth a try.

Also Bob Smith or his son Mike (I think that's the correct name) at American Diesel. Bob worked for Lehman Bros. and did much of the design work for Lehman's marinzation components for the FL120, FL135, etc. Based on conversations I've had with both Bob and his son, they could probably give you very specific reasons while old thumpers like the FL120 don't do so well when subjected to high power setting on a continuous basis.


You could also call or e-mail companies that rebuild marine diesels. Pat's Engines in Seattle comes to mind of the few companies I'm familiar with. The guys who rebuild failed or worn out engines for a living--- marine, aviation, or automotive--- have to tear them down first, and in the process they can see exactly what broke, and the ones I know have the experience to say why the part broke.

I have asked the exact same question you have to the chief mechanic at the air service I've been associated with for many years. And he gave me the exact kind of answers you are looking for. He described specifically what happened inside an engine or supercharger to make a particular component fail.
You would get the same degree of precise information about marine diesel failure if you pose your question to marine equivelent of my friend at the air service.

And if you do this, I hope you will be kind enough to share your information on this forum as a lot of us are as interested as you are about the truth of what breaks and why inside an engine under high rpm and/or loading.

Sorry for the aviation reference--- I am well aware how much you hate that--- but I felt it helped illustrate what I was trying to say.



-- Edited by Marin at 20:07, 2009-01-17
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Old 01-17-2009, 06:45 PM   #38
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RE: My engines are better than yours

HeyEric-*That was some real nice comments you made about some of our seasoned board members. Lots of info and occasionally lots of passion on the board. I suspect any of the info posted here will get your engine running and your boat moving. Courtesy and respect are always a plus too!!


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Old 01-17-2009, 07:21 PM   #39
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My engines are better than yours

"Crouching under a board by an old sailboat talling up any BS FF may sling ... "

I don' do no stinkin' sailboats ... and my office isn't under a board in the swamp, it's*on the water at*one of the*big boat*marinas.

Playing "whack-a-mole" with FF's version of reality is just entertainment but sometimes it helps save someone from making some seriously dangerous or expensive mistakes.

-- Edited by RickB at 20:21, 2009-01-17
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Old 01-18-2009, 07:06 AM   #40
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RE: My engines are better than yours

No, No Marin,

I don't " hate " your aviation stuff. I usually scan it and read very little of the marketing and frequently some or much of the engineering stuff. I've read some with a lot of interest. I don't think we've got an issue with space here so who cares if we don't read all this stuff. I go for periods of time when I don't read the " deep end " stuff at all but I read most everything else. Actually Marin I've enjoyed your posts considerably more lately.
Engines. I remember Norm Dibble at Doc's/Pats and Don ( I think ) at Gallery Marine but I feel people at the retail end are somewhat lacking in objectivity and knowlege but a bit overendowed with opnions and bias. Remember the guy at Northern Lights that said about the underloading issue " run'em like you hate'um "? This was'nt over the counter BS but published in an large magazine. The question for me is purely academic as I'm sure I run my engine hard enough ( 60 to 70% ) and I never run it over 80% for more than several minutes. Also my new engine is at the same performance level as your Lehmans ( approx 3 cu in per hp ). I don't know how I would contact Mitsubushi, Yanmar or Isuzu but I suppose I could try Cummins or Deere since they're in the states but what justification could I offer for taking thier time? I'm not in the market for anyones product and I don't need the infofmation. Maybe I should walk away from this question whith what I have.
Rick B,
I love your expression " whack a mole " and I agree. FF does come up with some trash but he has a good ( and bad ) sense of humor. Many on this site like him too. There was once a thread " what would FF do? " Nothing that flatering has come*to anyone else.*Sorry about the sailboat reference .. after all we have ENGINES.
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