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Old 10-13-2011, 01:14 PM   #21
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

I am new to site, just bought a 34' mainship, looking to post questions on this site for guidance, can you help?

Thanks
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:17 PM   #22
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

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yachtbrokerguy wrote:
So many people talk about fuel use, but when considering dockage, insurance, maintenance, depreciation and everything else fuel use is a small part of the typical boaters total expense for a year. If you are doing the Loop, ot lots of long distances than it is a big factor, but look at all of the 10 to 15 year old boats on the market with less than 2000 hours. Two smaller engines or one larger engine used over 3 years to 15 years will have a small difference in total dollars spent on fuel compared to all of the other expenses.
*I have always said the fuel is the cheapest part of boating!
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:08 PM   #23
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

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nomadwilly wrote:
Many things enter into that but most of us think we'll use our boats more than we actually end up doing.
******* Truer words have never been spoken!

That is certainly true on my last 8 boats. I never used them like I thought I would or as often.
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:27 PM   #24
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

I guess it depends on how one defines "use." In one sense we have used our boat almost every weekend year round during the thirteen years we have owned the boat so far. The only times we haven't is if we've been on an out-of-state vacation or if I've been traveling for work. BUT..... we haven't actually taken the boat out all those weekends. We drive the 100 miles to Bellingham to stay on the boat for the weekend--- it's our getaway cabin. Our slip is quite a ways out in the marina so we're away from much of the activity around the charter and brokerage docks, restaurant, and so on, and we have a great view of the bay. So the boat gets "used" year round almost every weekend even though it may not actually go anywhere. Which is good for it, I think. All the boat's systems are used regularly and don't just sit. The boat gets aired out every weekend. We are using and refilling the water tanks year round. And if my schedule or the winds prevent us from taking the boat out more than four weeks after the last time we had it out we run the engines in gear under load in the slip to take the engines to temperature and keep them there for 20 minutes or so. We also run the generator periodically. So while we don't actually get out as often as we'd like the boat is still "used" just about every weekend of the year.
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Old 10-13-2011, 07:01 PM   #25
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Thanks for so much info , One thing that is costly on a sailboat , is maintenance on sails etc. This has to offsett the cost of fuel also. In reality , Sails cost a lot to keep up over time. Also, when around the East Indies, the trips are fairly short between islands even from Antigua all the way to Grenada,Martingue, Dominica etc. So the fuel you would use for these trips on a trawler is not that much. I kinda looking for a unigue Trawler . I like the Albin 49, but have not sailed on one. Thanks again.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:39 AM   #26
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

After thinking about this, the open ocean,,two engines might be the best, for safety, I used to have sail and motor, and I have sailed when I couldnt get the motor started,, into the harbor,, *and dropped anchor without it, so thinking back ,* using my own experiences,,,, the open ocean is very unforgiving, ICW would be ok, with one engine, but I think two would be better for the islands.* Just thinking out loud.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:04 AM   #27
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Most of the world's fishing fleet operates on one engine. Over 90% of sudden engine shut downs are due to fuel issues so both would be effected usually. It is easier to maintain one engine then two. Don't get twins because of dependability, that is not a very accurate assumption to make.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:53 AM   #28
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

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Daddyo wrote:
Over 90% of sudden engine shut downs are due to fuel issues so both would be effected usually.
I think that is a totally incorrect assumtion.* With one exception EVERY engine shutdown that has occured to us or people we know has been due to cooling issues, not fuel issues.* The one exception was when I made an error during a fuel transfer and one of the engines got a big slug of air and quit.* Not wanting to bleed it in the rough-ish water we were in and needing to get our guests home by a certain time we tied off the shaft and came home on one.


But cooling issues, I think, are far more likely to be a problem with an engine than fuel unless one lives in a place where lousy fuel is the norm, not the exception.* I have talked to people who have had a problem with the fuel system on an engine, and we've had one--- a pinholed injection pipe.* But in all these cases, the problem was with one engine (or their only engine) and in all the cases we know of the engine did not have to be shut down.

So in my opinion, this notion that bad fuel causes both engines of a twin to shut down, while certainly theoretically possible, is something that rarely occurs in reality.

Most commercial fishing boats have one engine because (a) it's a big engine, (b) it's less expensive to run one engine instead of two and expenses are a major deal to commercial fishermen, (c) the designs of the boats make one engine the ideal configuration, (d) the engine in a commercial fishing boat is pretty easy to access and service and (d) the engines receive the sort of maintenance that's required to keep it running reliably, in no small part because it's so easy to access the engine.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:51 PM   #29
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Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Quote:
Daddyo wrote:
Most of the world's fishing fleet operates on one engine. Over 90% of sudden engine shut downs are due to fuel issues so both would be effected usually. It is easier to maintain one engine then two. Don't get twins because of dependability, that is not a very accurate assumption to make.
Having been in commercial fishing, what you say is partially true.* But it depends on where and how you fish.* True, many commercial fishing boats, gillnetters in my case, have one engine, with some exceptions.* There are a lot of reasons for having a single, but none of them involve redundancy, cost of operation, or maintenance.* It was really all about money.* There were probably many more reasons than this, but as a boat owner these were what I experienced:
  1. Cost of investment.* Most fishermen are getting into it on a shoe string, usually a bank loan and all their available cash. Singles are cheaper to build.
  2. Space - twins take up more room and you need max. storage for gear and your catch.* The more catch the more money.
  3. Weight - twins are heavier and when you are trying to maximize your catch too little fish storage and too much static weight are your enemy.
  4. Distances traveled, depending on the fishery, are often not very far.
  5. Being able to tie two boats together and let the tide run out from under you on a sandy bottom, in some cases a must have.
  6. Most breakdowns were mechanical, water pumps, fuel pumps, injector lines, shaft, plugged water inlets, lines and gear in props, transmissions, lost hydros, etc.* You name it, it happened.
What you really counted on was your fishing buddies to have your back.* You made friends and alliances, because you were going to need their help.* We were always breaking something and with a single that meant limping in if possible or have a buddy tow you in.* Did it happen often? Way too often for my liking.* Would I have liked to have twins? Yup - Every time I broke down.* Because lost fishing time was lost money.
So commercial fishing is probably not a good comparison to pleasure boating on this issue.* We did it, because we had no choice.* The reasoning was totally different.
*
ps: Now that I have a choice, I have twins.


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Friday 14th of October 2011 10:11:21 PM
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:58 PM   #30
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Marin and Larry B are spot on. The myth about 90% ( or whatever) of engine problems being "fuel related" just will not die.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:03 PM   #31
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Source Of Diesel Fuel Problems
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:16 PM   #32
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Hummm Walt, an AlgaeX sales site.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:17 PM   #33
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

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Edelweiss wrote:So commercial fishing is probably not a good comparison to pleasure boating on this issue.* We did it, because we had no choice.* The reasoning was totally different.
*Very interesting post by someone who's been there.* I learned some aspects of why fishboats are the way they are that I didn't know before.* Thanks.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:26 PM   #34
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Larry B paints a clear picture of the west coast fishing scene. Here in Thorne Bay the several fishermen are likely to spend several days working on each others boats. This spring they got going twice and limped or were towed back. They really stick together. When I say I'm go'in somewhere over a days run they say "who's go'in w you". The're kinda at a loss when I say we're going alone. I don't think twins are heaver though. So one guy's got twin 50hp and the other has a single of 100hp. Equal hp is the only objective way to compare and after initial purchase most things like fuel burn and maintenance costs are so close it's not worth talking about. Space in the engine compartment being an exception. If you're going to compare old twin and single GB 36s (or a lot of other Lehman powered trawlers) the regular situation dos'nt apply because the twin has two engines of the same size as in DOUBLE the power. Not comparable. When ever I talk about this I think of that GB 36 that had twin 55hp Yanmars. I think they should have made them like that.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:02 PM   #35
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Quote:
Marin wrote:Daddyo wrote:
Over 90% of sudden engine shut downs are due to fuel issues so both would be effected usually.
I think that is a totally incorrect assumtion.* With one exception EVERY engine shutdown that has occured to us or people we know has been due to cooling issues, not fuel issues.* The one exception was when I made an error during a fuel transfer and one of the engines got a big slug of air and quit.* Not wanting to bleed it in the rough-ish water we were in and needing to get our guests home by a certain time we tied off the shaft and came home on one.


But cooling issues, I think, are far more likely to be a problem with an engine than fuel unless one lives in a place where lousy fuel is the norm, not the exception.* I have talked to people who have had a problem with the fuel system on an engine, and we've had one--- a pinholed injection pipe.* But in all these cases, the problem was with one engine (or their only engine) and in all the cases we know of the engine did not have to be shut down.

So in my opinion, this notion that bad fuel causes both engines of a twin to shut down, while certainly theoretically possible, is something that rarely occurs in reality.

Most commercial fishing boats have one engine because (a) it's a big engine, (b) it's less expensive to run one engine instead of two and expenses are a major deal to commercial fishermen, (c) the designs of the boats make one engine the ideal configuration, (d) the engine in a commercial fishing boat is pretty easy to access and service and (d) the engines receive the sort of maintenance that's required to keep it running reliably, in no small part because it's so easy to access the engine.

*We have had three engine shutdowns over the years. The first was due to debris in the raw water impeller, the second was a plugged suction line to the raw water strainer, and the third was due to improperly installed (by a professional diesel mechanic) belts that ran, among other things, the raw water pump.

Have had water in the fuel tanks, but this was caught via regular filter checks.
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Old 10-15-2011, 04:25 AM   #36
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Many engine problems are from poor or lack of maint.

Sure hoses blow , fan belts die ,and impeller pumps need impellers , but ALL these will be caught with a PM program.

An operator can control PM , but seldom has much that can be done with bad fuel.

IF the boat had a better built marine fuel tank, this too could be part of the PM, but too many "tanks" are simple boxes of fuel, not really MARINE FUEL TANKS.
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:41 AM   #37
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

GW, you talk about maintenance and cost of sails. I do not know if you are including riggin in that category or not but one must maintain the rig as well. And if you are offshore cruising, you must maintain quite a spare parts inventory and the knowledge to know what to do with it.

Our shrimping fleet here on the gulf coast are all single engine.

Now, are commercial ships singles for the same reasons mentioned?...PS...they do go VERY far from port!
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:21 AM   #38
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Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Baker wrote:
/>
Our shrimping fleet here on the gulf coast are all single engine.

Now, are commercial ships singles for the same reasons mentioned?...PS...they do go VERY far from port!




-----------------------
I know a married couple who are both marine engineers, we're talking cargo ships, and hearing how they operate and maintain those ships is a completely different world than us. At sea they can fix almost anything short of rebuilding the main. Complete inventories of parts, pumps and accessories. They carry their own marine hardware store and mechanics. Major engine repairs are actually performed by the manufacture under a maintenance contract. They pull into port a crew comes aboard, pulls the head off one cylinder, lifts the piston and rod out with a overhead crane and does routine maintenance on that cylinder and running gear. Then Puts it back together in time for their scheduled sailing.

I think this is a damn good idea!! I just need to find someplace to put the mechanic and all the spare parts! LMAO!!

-- Edited by Edelweiss on Saturday 15th of October 2011 10:23:48 AM
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:55 AM   #39
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

Five years or so ago Dashew*reported on his all in costs to operate a sailboat vs an efficient trawler, with the trawler less cost. This is what drove him to design and build the FPBs. Last year he reported on the Windhorse costs and re-iterating the lower costs of power vs sail. He*detailed costs showing* that an efficient blue water sailing*rig is surprisingly expensive. Sails, fittings, sheets*and lines do not last forever. Credit Beebe, PAE, Northern Marine etc for opening our eyes on alternatives to sailing on long passages.
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Old 10-15-2011, 11:43 AM   #40
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RE: Moving from Sail to a Trawler

I'm surprised that engine access hasn't been discussed more. I like twins, they're fun to dock, but on the size boats I like to own, the amount of space around the engines, particularly on the outboard side, is often very limited with twins. Not only is maintenance easier with a single, but I only have to change oil, zincs, coolant, etc on one engine. It's much easier to keep on top of things. That more than anything else is why I went with a single.

One other factor with older boats is the options you have when it comes time to rebuild or re-power. You can always rebuild one engine at a time, but if you want to re-power with new engines, unless that engine is still manufactured, you're likely to have to replace both engines at the same time. That can be pretty expensive.
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