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Old 12-19-2010, 09:56 PM   #1
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Monk 36 Rudder

New to this Forum: Have a Monk 36 and have read that some of the Monks have oversized rudders. Does anyone have any information regarding this? Thanks
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:07 PM   #2
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Welcome! What year is your Monk? They have a long production run as I have learned so things can change from decade to decade. Define "oversized"? Here is a pic of our Monk 36 rudder- taken late this summer....pretty sure you can tell which ones were taken prior to the new bottom paint job we just had done!! *
We love our Monk- we have hull #30, model year 1983 so one of the older ones. *There are several other Monk 36 owners on here...I am sure they will chime in soon.
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Old 12-19-2010, 11:41 PM   #3
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

If over-sized, that's a good positive thing.* Bigger the better.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:27 AM   #4
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

I went another route to get a good performing rudder. I had an articulating rudder built for my new Mariner Seville PH trawler.* It's really fun to go nose into the dock with *the rudder hard over and give it a short blast of forward thottle.* The stern moves right up against the dock as if I had a stern thruster.* See attachments: (I hope)

Also, this is the web page for the builder:

http://bayviewengineeringind.com/

Ron
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:34 AM   #5
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

OK, the pictures didn't come through with my last post. I'm going to try again:
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:08 PM   #6
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Quote:
markpierce wrote:If over-sized, that's a good positive thing.* Bigger the better.
*If you are fond of drag and your stock and bearing can withstand the forces generated by an oversize rudder go for it.
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:30 PM   #7
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Quote:
RickB wrote:


markpierce wrote:If over-sized, that's a good positive thing.* Bigger the better.
*If you are fond of drag and your stock and bearing can withstand the forces generated by an oversize rudder go for it.

I'd rather think in terms of*better steering control at low speeds.* Besides, it is difficult to create high G-forces going 7 knots.

*
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:37 PM   #8
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Quote:
markpierce wrote:Besides, it is difficult to create high G-forces going 7 knots.
***************** **
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:00 PM   #9
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Quote:
RickB wrote:



***************** **


*
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:28 PM   #10
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Quote:
markpierce wrote:****** *
*That's kind of what I thought ...

The subject is the size of boat rudders. The loads imposed on the stock of a trawler rudder are created by anything*except G loads. **

"Bigger the better" is complete nonsense for many reasons but*G forces are not among them.

* Except for the thrust bearing at the top that takes the weight of the assembly and will "see" slightly higher and lower vertical loads created by pitching of the hull in high seas.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:50 PM   #11
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Mark,
In big following seas you can be surfing on a big one with your helm hard over and then before you capsize you go WOT. Can you visualize some rudder forces? When I'm close to that (hardly ever smash the throttle) I think about my big rudder and hope it holds on.
See my picture and notice how beefy the keel shoe is. I don't think they wasted thier time mak'in it that strong.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:03 PM   #12
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Windmist,
I like your rudder and think it may be a very good option for most trawlers. My rudder works so well (cause the boats so short and the rudder's so big) that I'd rather have a bow thruster but don't feel a strong enough need to spend the time and money. Don't like that gaping hole in the bow either.
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:39 PM   #13
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Several Monk owners have made modifications (inceased the size or added features to make it more" aerodynamic") to the rudder to make it more aggressive.
I haven't really noticed a need for that but some folks obviously do.
On mine, Hull #230, the number of turns of the wheel from lock to lock can be varied turning a knob under the wheel. This might be something want to try if you have that feature.
I am sending a private message to your profile page
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:05 PM   #14
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Quote:
RickB wrote:


markpierce wrote:****** *
*That's kind of what I thought ...

The subject is the size of boat rudders. ....
Your aviation avatar affected my subconscious, so*I was thinking about tight turns and the effect on the human body rather than stresses on the rudder.

Hopefully the boat designer takes into consideration the size of the rudder when determining its construction*as well as*the*fittings/mechanisms controlling.

*
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:11 PM   #15
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Mark,
In big following seas you can be surfing on a big one with your helm hard over and then before you capsize you go WOT. Can you visualize some rudder forces? When I'm close to that (hardly ever smash the throttle) I think about my big rudder and hope it holds on. ...
But if the rudder isn't big enough to control the boat, you are likely to broach.* Many times I've had the tiller pulled tight to my gut to keep control.* And it always helped to anticipate the wave to begin rudder adjustment just as the wave forces started.*

*
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:16 PM   #16
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Eric, I like*Nomadwilly's big rudder.** I appreciate boat designs that support the rudder from both top and bottom.
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:02 AM   #17
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Monk 36 Rudder

It*did not*occurred to me to increase the rudder size just increase the angle and/or how it catches the water

I have look and talk to Bayview about the Actuating rudder several times as they are at the Seattle Boat show and read a couple of articles.* I am not quite a believer as the actuating rudder is another piece of running gear to take care of and can get fouled.* Does the Actuating Rudder help reduce the reverse prop walk?

It seems if you increased the actuator length by adding in a small link/piece would increase the rudders turning angle it might shorten the turning distance and/or push the stern more to the side.* *A fish tail rudder is another possibility alternative. **Converting a rudder to a fish tail rudder looks to be easy, it would create some additional drag, but being a slow trawler it might not be noticed.
*

*


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 21st of December 2010 12:03:37 PM
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:15 AM   #18
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Quote:
Mike wrote:


*

A rudder that is too small makes for a boat that is hard to steer and a tired helmsman.


*So what would a balanced rudder vs and unbalanced or semi balanced Rudder do?

SD*
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:08 PM   #19
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Dude,
The ballanced rudder is easier to turn at the helm and presents less stress on the rudder horn bearings ect. The hydraulic steering system I favor is using two slave cylinders on the horn**** ..one pushing* ..one pulling. Actually what I'd REALLY like is power steering like in a car. And about 2 to 2.25 turns lock to lock..
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:30 PM   #20
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RE: Monk 36 Rudder

Thanks Mike,
*Just checking.

SD
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