MMSI rant, part two

[koliver]

I would say with all the boats I see in Puget Sound and all the waters north, no one cares if you have an FCC license or not.

Since in Canada you don't need a license to have a VHF radio, if you have a BoatUS MMSI, and no FCC license, you are good to go.

 

[Bacchus]

Agree and we cruise into Canada often.
I have never had a problem and never heard of anyone that has.

Reminds me of the old requirement to have a license for owning a CB.

I have a BoatUS MMSI and I do not have a radio license. Not an issue.

 

[SteveK]

I understand how you could (mid)interpret the link above to mean that if you stay in the US and Canada you don’t need a ships station license. [STRIKE]Unfortunately, you are wrong[/STRIKE]. No Sir, it is you that is misunderstanding and then misquoting to make your point

Here is what the FCC says. https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/ship-radio-stations

Inserted what you left out
You do not need a license to operate a marine VHF radio, radar, or EPIRBs aboard voluntary ships operating domestically. The term "voluntary ships" refers to ships that are not required by law to carry a radio. Generally, this term applies to recreation or pleasure craft. The term "voluntary ships" does not apply to the following:
Cargo ships over 300 gross tons navigating in the open sea;
Ships certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to carry more than 6 passengers for hire in the open sea or tidewaters of the U.S.;
Power driven ships over 20 meters in length on navigable waterways;
Ships (as in NOT voluntary ships)of more than 100 gross tons certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to carry at least one passenger on navigable waterways;
Tow boats of more than 7.8 meters in length on navigable waterways; and,
Uninspected commercial fishing industry vessels required to carry a VHF radio.
Ships required to carry an Automatic Identification System (AIS) transceiver by the U.S. Coast Guard regulations enacted pursuant to the Maritime Transportation Security Act of 2000.
Ships are considered as operating domestically when they do not travel to foreign ports or do not transmit radio communications to foreign stations. Sailing in international waters is permitted, so long as the previous conditions are met. If you travel to a foreign port (e.g., Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, British Virgin Islands), a license is required. Additionally, if you travel to a foreign port, you are required to have an operator permit.[/COLOR]
Ships are considered as operating domestically when they do not travel to foreign ports or do not transmit radio communications to foreign stations. Sailing in international waters is permitted, so long as the previous conditions are met. If you travel to a foreign port (e.g., Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, British Virgin Islands), a license is required. Additionally, if you travel to a foreign port, you are required to have an operator permit.

Now you are quoting station channels and related licensing, not the same topic

The actual rule can be found in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 47, Chapter 1, Sub-chapter D, Part 80.13

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...d53d2b88a&mc=true&node=se47.5.80_113&rgn=div8

§80.13 Station license required.
(a) Except as noted in paragraph (c) of this section, stations in the maritime service must be licensed by the FCC either individually or by fleet.

(b) One ship station license will be granted for operation of all maritime services transmitting equipment on board a vessel. Radiotelegraph and narrow-band directing-printing equipment will not be authorized, however, unless specifically requested by the applicant.

(c) A ship station is licensed by rule and does not need an individual license issued by the FCC if the ship station is not subject to the radio equipment carriage requirements of any statute, treaty or agreement to which the United States is signatory, the ship station does not travel to foreign ports, and the ship station does not make international communications. A ship station licensed by rule is authorized to transmit radio signals using a marine radio operating in the 156-162 MHz band, any type of AIS, any type of EPIRB, and any type of radar installation. All other transmissions must be authorized under a ship station license. Even though an individual license is not required, a ship station licensed by rule must be operated in accordance with all applicable operating requirements, procedures, and technical specifications found in this part.

[61 FR 58010, Nov. 12, 1996, as amended at 62 FR 40304, July 28, 1997; 71 FR 60074, Oct. 12, 2006]

The way to read this is that you must have a ships station license unless you don’t travel to foreign ports or communicate internationally. For those of us in the US, that does mean Canada.

The phrase A ships station is license by rule means that by default any VHF radio in a recreational boat that doesn’t travel or communicate internationally or isn’t required to carry a VHF for any other reason, is granted license by this rule to use their radio. However, as soon as we join or talk to our Canadian friends, we need an individual license issued by the FCC.

Of course the FCC only regulates US boats. I have no idea who regulates Canadian boats but Canada still operates under the same international treaties. Canada will have developed its own rules to comply with its treaties.

I have quoted and linked that Canada/US has relaxed the rules between our countries, but ask 10 lawyers and you will get 10 answers.

ETA: Ships that are required to have a radio MUST have them licensed when travelling to foreign ports including Canada. Not pleasure craft!

 

[twistedtree]

Since in Canada you don't need a license to have a VHF radio, if you have a BoatUS MMSI, and no FCC license, you are good to go.

It does seem that nobody cares, but you would still be in violation of the CFR that dHays posted, and US citizens are subject to US laws wherever they are, not just when in the US.


It's a technicality, and I know many people ignore it and don't care. But some of us prefer to be in compliance when traveling internationally.

 

[sunchaser]

The Boater's card is entirely different. In Canada it is the PCOC (Pleasure Craft Operator's Certificate) and does not pertain to the radio in any way.
That is the Certificate that allows one to operate a PWC after a certain age, restricts youngsters from excessive hp, and that we here in TF all have had for so long we can't recall how easy it was to get it.

Thanks Keith. I do understand that operator's certificate is not relative to the VHF question. The point I was trying to make was whatever Is and Ts need crossing we are trying to over comply.

 

[Bajabuzz]

Very interesting conversation!

I recently purchased a boat in Anacortes. The radios were old and one had a bad mic so I recently replaced it with an Icom. The old radios did not have MMSI numbers. No call sign placard was present. This boat was a one owner vessel and cruised the PNW since 1995 and has been to Alaska.

I have not yet applied for the MMSI number for the new radio. So I will likely just get the BoatUS MMSI number.

So this brings up a couple of questions.

Even if I do not have the FCC MMSI does all the info still show up outside of USA.

I have a handheld VHF from my fishing boat in California that I will have with me as a backup on my trips in the PNW. This is registered to a smaller boat. It will be used in the dingy mostly. So is this an issue?

 

[dhays]

Since in Canada you don't need a license to have a VHF radio, if you have a BoatUS MMSI, and no FCC license, you are good to go.

I understand what you are saying Keith, but I wonder.... I don’t think that I can avoid my obligations by leaving the country. This has nothing to do with Canadian requirements, but the requirements that the US FCC places on its own citizens as it complies with international treaties.

But as ASD notes, very few care and certainly the Canadian authorities don’t care if a US boater is in compliance with US regulations or not.

 

[menzies]

Even if I do not have the FCC MMSI does all the info still show up outside of USA.

No, it will not.

 

[menzies]

For US Boaters.

I know I am repeating myself somewhat.

But seriously.

For ~$200 why not get the operator's license (life) and boat license (ten years).

Why not just simply do it. Put it in your documents file on board, and do the right thing.

Whether they ever check or not. Just do the right thing.

 

[dhays]

For US Boaters.

I know I am repeating myself somewhat.

But seriously.

For ~$200 why not get the operator's license (life) and boat license (ten years).

Why not just simply do it. Put it in your documents file on board, and do the right thing.

Whether they ever check or not. Just do the right thing.

One reason is that if you already have a boat that has a MMSI through BoatUS, Power Squadron, etc... then I think you may have to apply for a new MMSI and then send your DSC equipped VHF back to the manufacturer to have it changed. I could be wrong on this. If so, it would be a bit of a hassle and potentially more money.

So, that could be a barrier to some.

I was fortunate. The last two boats that I bought had DSC equipped VHFs and neither of the original owners had bothered to get a MMSI. So, I was the first to enter an MMSI into the VHF.

 

[twistedtree]

For US Boaters.

I know I am repeating myself somewhat.

But seriously.

For ~$200 why not get the operator's license (life) and boat license (ten years).

Why not just simply do it. Put it in your documents file on board, and do the right thing.

Whether they ever check or not. Just do the right thing.

 

[ghost]

One reason is that if you already have a boat that has a MMSI through BoatUS, Power Squadron, etc... then I think you may have to apply for a new MMSI and then send your DSC equipped VHF back to the manufacturer to have it changed. I could be wrong on this. If so, it would be a bit of a hassle and potentially more money.

So, that could be a barrier to some.

I was fortunate. The last two boats that I bought had DSC equipped VHFs and neither of the original owners had bothered to get a MMSI. So, I was the first to enter an MMSI into the VHF.

This.

 

[menzies]

One reason is that if you already have a boat that has a MMSI through BoatUS, Power Squadron, etc... then I think you may have to apply for a new MMSI and then send your DSC equipped VHF back to the manufacturer to have it changed. I could be wrong on this. If so, it would be a bit of a hassle and potentially more money.

So, that could be a barrier to some.

I was fortunate. The last two boats that I bought had DSC equipped VHFs and neither of the original owners had bothered to get a MMSI. So, I was the first to enter an MMSI into the VHF.

Maybe I come at this from a different angle.

I am retired. I want my boating to be as simple as I can make it for as long as I can make it.

If I have to put a bit more effort into certain areas to nail that son-of-a-bitch knarly problem area so that afterwards it is all smooth sailing for the next twenty years.

Betcha bottom dollar I will nail that SOB and then know that I can forget about it. And then go boating.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

No, it will not.

My MMSI works in Canada......just say'n

 

[refugio]

Try asking your question on the Raymarine Forum. They will answer in a day or two.

This - but search the forum first, I’d bet it’s been asked and answered and Chuck will point you to a post with the details.

That forum is a little odd - they moderate all posts quite heavily.

 

[Mikala]

My MMSI works in Canada......just say'n

It will work everywhere. How would your AIS transmitter know whether you acquired your MMSI number from BoatUS or the FCC? Ridiculous!!

 

[menzies]

It will work everywhere. How would your AIS transmitter know whether you acquired your MMSI number from BoatUS or the FCC? Ridiculous!!

Depends what you guys mean by "work."

Can reading units can see your MMSI - sure. But then they aren't going to know the size, and type of your vessel. How many people usually on board, who to contact ashore etc.

So it works, but it doesn't.

 

[Mikala]

Depends what you guys mean by "work."

Can reading units can see your MMSI - sure. But then they aren't going to know the size, and type of your vessel. How many people usually on board, who to contact ashore etc.

So it works, but it doesn't.

Wrong again. From BoatUS:

Q: When I’m using my AIS, can anyone receiving my signal identify me and tell where I am?

Class A and Class B AIS units transmit your position and any identifying information you have programmed into the AIS unit, including your MMSI number.

So when you program your boat name, length, type, etc., it is transmitted.

 

[rslifkin]

Menzies is correct about them not being able to look up that info from the MMSI in the case of a DSC distress call. The data from non-FCC MMSIs doesn't go into the international database.

 

[Mikala]

Menzies is correct about them not being able to look up that info from the MMSI in the case of a DSC distress call. The data from non-FCC MMSIs doesn't go into the international database.

Agreed. And he’s wrong about everything else.

 

[dhays]

Menzies is correct about them not being able to look up that info from the MMSI in the case of a DSC distress call. The data from non-FCC MMSIs doesn't go into the international database.

Yup. From a practical standpoint, the only thing it affects is a DSC distress call. AIS info is still being transmitted so any AIS receivers will get it. So a non-FCC MMSI that is transmitted via a DSC distress call won’t give the non-US emergency services the boat information that is part of a Ships Station license.

May not matter much, they still will see the GPS coordinates they just won’t know anything about the vessel issuing the distress call.

 

[menzies]

Wrong again. From BoatUS:

Q: When I’m using my AIS, can anyone receiving my signal identify me and tell where I am?

Class A and Class B AIS units transmit your position and any identifying information you have programmed into the AIS unit, including your MMSI number.

So when you program your boat name, length, type, etc., it is transmitted.

Not outside the US, which is what we are discussing.

 

[menzies]

Agreed. And he’s wrong about everything else.

Which "everything else" items from my posts on this thread would those be?

 

[STB]

I don't understand why AIS wouldn't transmit that data outside the US, or why it wouldn't be usable outside of the US. The primary design purpose for the data being transmitted is letting others knowing where you are in order to avoid collisions, facilitate communication, etc. It was designed to ensure safety of ships from all over the globe, wherever on the globe they might meet.

Although MMSI's that aren't associated with licenses might not be in the international databases, Class A and Class B radios, themselves, still transmits everything they know.

This includes static data, such asMMSI, vessel type, vessel name, call sign, IMO or Official Documentation Number, antenna location, and vessel dimensions.

It also includes voyage data, such as navigation status, draft, destination, and ETA.

What isn't transmitted are things that are only in the database, such as number of life rafts, types of communication equipment aboard, etc.

 

[Mikala]

Which "everything else" items from my posts on this thread would those be?

Read Post 81 and you may learn something. It is apparent, from this and other threads, that you are incapable of admitting you are wrong.

 

[Mikala]

I don't understand why AIS wouldn't transmit that data outside the US, or why it wouldn't be usable outside of the US. The primary design purpose for the data being transmitted is letting others knowing where you are in order to avoid collisions, facilitate communication, etc. It was designed to ensure safety of ships from all over the globe, wherever on the globe they might meet.

Although MMSI's that aren't associated with licenses might not be in the international databases, Class A and Class B radios, themselves, still transmits everything they know.

This includes static data, such asMMSI, vessel type, vessel name, call sign, IMO or Official Documentation Number, antenna location, and vessel dimensions.

It also includes voyage data, such as navigation status, draft, destination, and ETA.

What isn't transmitted are things that are only in the database, such as number of life rafts, types of communication equipment aboard, etc.

Exactly! It is remarkable that certain people cannot comprehend this.

 

[menzies]

Read Post 81 and you may learn something. It is apparent, from this and other threads, that you are incapable of admitting you are wrong.

Ah, you may want to read that again. That is a dhays post - and in fact he was agreeing with me.

Point me to a post of mine on this thread that was wrong.

And BTW, let's stay away from personal insults shall we?

 

[menzies]

I don't understand why AIS wouldn't transmit that data outside the US, or why it wouldn't be usable outside of the US. The primary design purpose for the data being transmitted is letting others knowing where you are in order to avoid collisions, facilitate communication, etc. It was designed to ensure safety of ships from all over the globe, wherever on the globe they might meet.

Although MMSI's that aren't associated with licenses might not be in the international databases, Class A and Class B radios, themselves, still transmits everything they know.

This includes static data, such asMMSI, vessel type, vessel name, call sign, IMO or Official Documentation Number, antenna location, and vessel dimensions.

It also includes voyage data, such as navigation status, draft, destination, and ETA.

What isn't transmitted are things that are only in the database, such as number of life rafts, types of communication equipment aboard, etc.

Correct. [For US vessels] And the AIS will transmit that data entered by the owner (which is often crap) AND everything the owner put into the registration database, while cruising OUS, IF it is an FCC MMSI.

If it is a Boat US MMSI it will not include the database information - and in a distress situation that is data you want rescuers to have as well. So if travelling outside the US (with perhaps the exception of Canada which may or may not be covered) you should get the FCC MMSI to make sure search and rescue have everything they possible could - and the person (next of kin, or other shore person) that you nominate is made aware that you have issued a distress call. Those people may have additional information the rescuers could use - like latest float plan. See piece in bold below from the Coast Guard.

See US Non-Federal User in this link.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtmmsi


If your MMSI registration information or contact information changes for any reason, you must update your registration. If you sell your DSC-equipped radio or AIS or the boat these devices are mounted on, you must cancel your MMSI registration and should inform the new owner of the need to reregister the MMSI. This is necessary to ensure that the Coast Guard is able to contact the right persons if a distress situation were ever to occur. These registration changes can be accomplished by contacting the organization or agency which originally registered your MMSI. If you do not know which organization registered your MMSI, you can identify that organization by comparing your existing MMSI against those listed in the document MMSI ship station blocks allocated in the US (updated 05 August 2019).

 

[psneeld]

 

[menzies]

Awesome post, with all of the great information we have come to expect from you.