MMSI rant, part two

[STB]

Correct. And the AIS will transmit everything within it's coding AND everything the owner put into the database while cruising OUS, IF it is an FCC MMSI.

I don't really want to get into the back and forth here too much, because I really think everyone agrees and this thread may have just taken a left turn. I value your contributions, and the contributions of everyone else on the forum. I'm glad y'all are here (and tolerate me!)

Having said that, I suspect you slightly mis-wrote above, or maybe I am misreading what you wrote above.

AIS transcievers don't generally have access to the FCC database, or any related database. So, they just transmit the things that have directly been programmed into them.

Those who are receiving AIS transmissions may have access to online or offline copies of the data associated with the radio license, which can then be looked up by the MMSI provided by the receiving AIS radio. This lookup can be fully integrated and automated, but isn't necessarily.

For example, in my boat, I have a Class-A transciever. And, in my last boat, I had a Class-B transciever. And, before that, I had a Class-C receiver (and still have two in my VHF-DSC radios, as backup). None of these happen(ed) to be tied into any database, offline or online. I just get(got) the programmed data and, from there, can(could) look the rest up manually, e.g. via the Web on a tablet or my phone.

 

[menzies]

AIS transcievers don't generally have access to the FCC database, or any related database. So, they just transmit the things that have directly been programmed into them.

Those who are receiving AIS transmissions may have access to online or offline copies of the data associated with the radio license, which can then be looked up by the MMSI provided by the receiving AIS radio. This lookup can be fully integrated and automated, but isn't necessarily.

Yes, of course. The MMSI is used to grab that data from the database, not from the AIS. If it is a BoatUS MMSI there will not be anything in the database to grab. Hence search and rescue have less to work on - and no one to contact on shore.

I suspect USCG, for example, has everything pop on an distress call - AIS data and database data, for expediency.

Which is why any US boat cruising OUS, really should get the FCC MMSI.

I get it that it is a PITA and has a cost to send a unit back - but...

Thanks for allowing me to clarify.

 

[dhays]

I don't really want to get into the back and forth here too much, because I really think everyone agrees and this thread may have just taken a left turn. I value your contributions, and the contributions of everyone else on the forum. I'm glad y'all are here (and tolerate me!)

Agreed!

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Depends what you guys mean by "work."

Can reading units can see your MMSI - sure. But then they aren't going to know the size, and type of your vessel. How many people usually on board, who to contact ashore etc.

So it works, but it doesn't.

Wrong again. From BoatUS:

Q: When I’m using my AIS, can anyone receiving my signal identify me and tell where I am?

Class A and Class B AIS units transmit your position and any identifying information you have programmed into the AIS unit, including your MMSI number.

So when you program your boat name, length, type, etc., it is transmitted.

Yup. From a practical standpoint, the only thing it affects is a DSC distress call. AIS info is still being transmitted so any AIS receivers will get it. So a non-FCC MMSI that is transmitted via a DSC distress call won’t give the non-US emergency services the boat information that is part of a Ships Station license.

May not matter much, they still will see the GPS coordinates they just won’t know anything about the vessel issuing the distress call.

Well all I know is other vessels in Canada can see and read my AIS information associated with my MMSI. The claim that DSC information doesn't transmit isn't correct as I have witnessed both Canada MMSIs and BoatUS DSC information come over my radios WHILE I WAS IN CANADA.

Scared the crap out of me.

 

[menzies]

Well all I know is other vessels in Canada can see and read my AIS information associated with my MMSI. The claim that DSC information doesn't transmit isn't correct as I have witnessed both Canada MMSIs and BoatUS DSC information come over my radios WHILE I WAS IN CANADA.

Scared the crap out of me.

No one is saying that the DSC info is not transmitted. The database data (that is not in your AIS) is not transmitted when using a BoatUS MMSI.

Here is the BoatUS MMSI page.

https://www.boatus.com/MMSI/MMSI/Home

Registration Criteria
BoatUS has been authorized by both the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and the U.S. Coast Guard to assign MMSI numbers only to vessels that meet the following criteria:

Used for recreation only
Not required by law to carry a radio
Do not communicate with or visit foreign ports (i.e. Canada, Bahamas, Mexico & the Caribbean)

If you do not meet these criteria, you are legally required to obtain a Ship Station License from the FCC. They will issue an MMSI number with a Ship Station License.


Some here are saying you can use a BoatUS MMSI while cruising Canada. So perhaps BoatUS has it wrong on their page.

 

[psneeld]

For those concerned, the info that is not AIS transmitted and important to the USCG or other SAR resources can be in an up to date float plan or what is probably the same info as your PLB/EPIRB registration.

 

[STB]

Perhaps there is some confusion because, although talked about less often, there are different classes of DSC. My boat, like most recreational boats, is equipped with a Class-D DSC radio. Most commercial vessels subject to a carriage requirement carry Class-A DSC radios.

Nominally there is also a recreational Class-E and a commercial Class-B, but I don't think I've ever stumbled upon either for sale (and certainly haven't looked for Class-A/Class-B gear). Class-C, Class-F, and Class-G, perhaps among others, were cut during the standardization process.

Class-A/Class-B and Class-C/Class-D DSC radios differ significantly w.r.t. which respect to their capabilities and what they send over the air.

So, although there can be differences in what is received via DSC, they are the result of differences in the DSC radios, not outside factors. DSC, by itself, really just sends an MMSI, the nature of the distress, the GPS location, and the time of that GPS location, and some other odds-and-ends, but not nearly as much data as AIS sends or as is in the FCC license database.

On the receiving side, integration is of course possible. One can receive an DSC disress call, get the MMSI from it, show a unified view of the AIS and DSC positions integrated with both the DSC and AIS data, and maybe even a data pull from a license-derived data source. But, that is all happening as part of the integration.

 

[STB]

For those concerned, the info that is not AIS transmitted and important to the USCG or other SAR resources can be in an up to date float plan or what is probably the same info as your PLB/EPIRB registration.

And that EPIRB works for the first sign of distress -- until well "after the fact".

 

[dhays]

Perhaps there is some confusion because, although talked about less often, there are different classes of DSC. My boat, like most recreational boats, is equipped with a Class-D DSC radio. Most commercial vessels subject to a carriage requirement carry Class-A DSC radios.

Nominally there is also a recreational Class-E and a commercial Class-B, but I don't think I've ever stumbled upon either for sale (and certainly haven't looked for Class-A/Class-B gear). Class-C, Class-F, and Class-G, perhaps among others, were cut during the standardization process.

Class-A/Class-B and Class-C/Class-D DSC radios differ significantly w.r.t. which respect to their capabilities and what they send over the air.

So, although there can be differences in what is received via DSC, they are the result of differences in the DSC radios, not outside factors. DSC, by itself, really just sends an MMSI, the nature of the distress, the GPS location, and the time of that GPS location, and some other odds-and-ends, but not nearly as much data as AIS sends or as is in the FCC license database.

On the receiving side, integration is of course possible. One can receive an DSC disress call, get the MMSI from it, show a unified view of the AIS and DSC positions integrated with both the DSC and AIS data, and maybe even a data pull from a license-derived data source. But, that is all happening as part of the integration.

That all makes a lot of sense and may explain a lot of what we see.

 

[Comodave]

When I am in trouble and need help, I want the people looking for me to have every bit of info that can help them help me. I want my data in the international data base if I am going out of the country. For the relatively small cost and inconvenience I will go with the FCC issued number.

 

[psneeld]

Just what database info is there that really IS necessary for a successful SAR case?


I know what is and isn't needed..... all you really need is a mayday and a position.


Everything else is subject to error or guessing.


Again a daily float plan with daily confirmation outside the SAR loop is probably the best.


After that an PLB/EPIRB...


After that...everything else is a distant third....way too much overthinking.

 

[menzies]

I believe the conversation is actually around using a BoatUS MMSI while cruising outside of the US.

Are you suggesting that, because the database information is a distant third, people are OK using the BoatUS MMSI while OUS, communicating with foreign stations?

 

[Mikala]

I believe the conversation is actually around using a BoatUS MMSI while cruising outside of the US.

Are you suggesting that, because the database information is a distant third, people are OK using the BoatUS MMSI while OUS, communicating with foreign stations?

No. That’s what you chose to make the conversation about...over and over and over again. The PO never asked about an MMSI for use outside of the US.

 

[STB]

I suspect everyone here believes that, in the event of an emergency outside of domestic waters, a licensed MMSI can provide interested parties ready access to certain potentially helpful information.

I suspect everyone here believes that, in the event of an emergency, there are other ways of communicating much of that potentially useful information, e.g. registered EPIRB, AIS, VHF, etc.

I suspect everyone here agrees that a licensed station (including MMSI) and operator is required to get the protections of the certain treaties w.r.t. at least some other than domestic interactions.

I suspect that everyone here agrees that, in the event of distress, an unlicensed radio with an unlicensed MMSI and/or an unlicensed operator, even if operating outside of the protection of treaties and possibly local law, still provides the most important information to interested parties, e.g. that a vessel is in distress, the location of the vessel in distress, and a way of addressing the vessel in distress.

I suspect everyone here agrees that a vessel which normally operates in domestic waters, but finds itself in distress in a foreign or international jurisdiction, should use their DSC Distress alert in order to secure potentially life-saving help, even if it is unlicensed.

I don't think anyone here argues that, at the time of applying for an MMSI, operators of vessels intending frequent transit into foreign or international waters should not secure station and operator licenses.

So, really I see this whole discussion as one of how to manage edge cases. And, as we've seen before, different folks here do that differently. In my case, both I and my station are licensed.

But, you know what concerns me more than this type of threshold question? Folks who have VHF-DSC radios and who haven't programmed /any/ MMSI into them. Folks who have GPS-capable VHF-DSC radios that require external GPS and have GPS aboard, but haven't integrated them. Folks that leave port without radios that truly work, e.g. bad antennas, folded down and inaccessible antennas, lack of operator knowledge, etc.

If we get to the point where whether or not radios that are otherwise properly maintained, configured, and available for use are federally licensed or industry-registered makes the list of the "Top N" safety issues at sea, for any imaginable N, high-five folks. We've achieved universal safety on the water. I think.

 

[menzies]

I suspect everyone here believes that, in the event of an emergency, a licensed MMSI can provide interested parties ready access to certain potentially helpful information.

I suspect everyone here believes that, in the event of an emergency, there are other ways of communicating much of that potentially useful information, e.g. registered EPIRB, AIS, VHF, etc.

I suspect everyone here agrees that a licensed station (including MMSI) and operator is required to get the protections of the certain treaties w.r.t. at least some other than domestic interactions.

I suspect that everyone here agrees that, in the event of distress, an unlicensed radio and/operator with an unlicensed MMSI, even if operating outside of the protection of treaties and possibly local law, still provides the most important information to interested parties, e.g. that a vessel is in distress, the location of the vessel in distress, and a way of addressing the vessel in distress.

I suspect everyone here agrees that a vessel which normally operates in domestic waters, but finds itself in distress in a foreign or international jurisdiction, should use their DSC Distress alert in order to secure potentially life-saving help.

I don't think anyone here argues that, at the time of applying for an MMSI, operators of vessels intending frequent transit into foreign or international waters should apply for station and operators licenses.

So, really I see this whole discussion as one of how to manage edge cases. And, as we've seen before, different folks here do that differently. In my case, both I and my station are licensed.

But, you know what concerns me more than this type of threshold question? Folks who have VHF-DSC radios and who haven't programmed /any/ MMSI into them. Folks who have GPS-capable MMSI radios that haven't integrated them. Folks that leave port without radios that truly work, e.g. bad antennas, folded down and inaccessible antennas, lack of operator knowledge, etc.

If we get to the point where whether or not radios that are otherwise properly maintained, configured, and available for use are federally licensed or industry-registered makes the list of the "Top N" safety issues at sea, for any imaginable N, high-five folks. We've achieved universal safety on the water. I think.

Very well put, excellent in fact.

 

[menzies]

No. That’s what you chose to make the conversation about...over and over and over again. The PO never asked about an MMSI for use outside of the US.

And yet...

It will work everywhere. How would your AIS transmitter know whether you acquired your MMSI number from BoatUS or the FCC? Ridiculous!!

 

[psneeld]

I believe the conversation is actually around using a BoatUS MMSI while cruising outside of the US.

Are you suggesting that, because the database information is a distant third, people are OK using the BoatUS MMSI while OUS, communicating with foreign stations?

Once again....don't look for stuff that ain't there.


I am just reporting what I know to be the truth based on my experience.


That database info often is useless in SAR for most of us rec boaters...less so for some commercials.


Just a reminder...radios don't always communicate like they should.....there are many potential dead spots depending where you boat. DSC was supposed to help...not sure if it really has yet in the US.

 

[twistedtree]

Just to clarify, the info that an AIS or DSC VHF transmits and receives is the same no matter what MMSI is programmed into the device.


The supplemental info that's in your registration, be it BoatUS or FCC, is in a database in some computer. That info is never transmitted by your AIS or DSC VHF.


SAR people, on receipt of an alert, can use the MMSI transmitted by your AIS or VHF to look up the supplemental info in a data base. You can do it too. The ITU database is on line. If they don't find you in the database, I doubt they will ignore the distress call. They just won't be able to respond with the benefit of the extra info. Things like your name, what type of boat, color, home contact info, emergency contacts, etc. So they won't be able to call you or your wife and ask if you are actually out in the boat, or asleep at home. Or they won't be able to tell your wife that you are lost at sea and that her dreams have finally come true.

 

[menzies]

Or they won't be able to tell your wife that you are lost at sea and that her dreams have finally come true.

That's why I always take her with me, if I go down she is going down with me!

No toy boy is going to get my money!

 

[psneeld]

There are a few misconceptions about search and rescue here.


The two ways the Coast Guard or any rescue organization is usually notified is either by the boat itself or some third party.


If it's a third-party, often the information they have is really no help in the actual location of the distressed vessel. Sure it might be a description ,and might be about the gear on board, but as to where the boat was actually disabled.... they have really no idea.... just a general location where the boat might have gone. And you're not going to get much better info out of any database.


The other contact way is, the boat contacts the Coast Guard or rescue organization directly. Either by radio or EPIRB or some other form of distress signal. Even if you only have a Boat US MMSI you can still contact the Coast Guard directly by radio and pass all needed information anyhow.



Just because you have the red button on the radio and it sends out some pre-selected information.... it doesn't mean it's going to work any better or any farther than just a standard radio transmission (at least I don't think so).

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Just what database info is there that really IS necessary for a successful SAR case?


I know what is and isn't needed..... all you really need is a mayday and a position.


Everything else is subject to error or guessing.


Again a daily float plan with daily confirmation outside the SAR loop is probably the best.


After that an PLB/EPIRB...


After that...everything else is a distant third....way too much overthinking.

Very good points. However the more the better if you are in a SAR situation.

 

[psneeld]

Very good points. However the more the better if you are in a SAR situation.

Actually not....


Info can be misleading.


I have been involved with thousands and thousands of SAR cases either directly or in review.


Many start with clear cut info...only to not find anything as expected.


I liken the success of many SAR cases to good detective work behind the scenes.


While aircraft and boats are chugging along...often it's due diligence by the operations center that saves the day.


The stuff in national data bases can be useful....but I will take fresh info any day. So if you update your data base every time you go out....get my point?


A fresh float plan with a manifest every day and a confirmation of position or arrival is WAYYYYYY better. For alerting...cant beat an EPIRB/PLB.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So this year we put over 3700 miles on ASD. During our time cruising this year we heard 4 "Maydays." NO DSC was activated.

Victoria Coast Guard went through a list with the boater. Position, folks on board, life jackets, nature of the emergency, Anchor deployed. As stated "fresh" information is the best.

So ASD has a routine for a mayday call. As I am calling the Coast Guard, PLBs are being activated and gumby suits deployed and then the dinghy is released. Dinghy has its own VHF radio.

With the exception of 190 mile open ocean crossing everything is on the inside

AIS is NOT for SAR, it is used for collision avoidance.

 

[psneeld]

Not to be nitpicky...


But if you have an AIS transponder...and someone just saw you a little bit ago on it....and sorta remembers your position, course and speed ( I know, who remembers all that....BUT).....


Then that someone hears a PAN PAN about your vessel...that IS important info in a SAR case......


But most of the database info at that point is useless or irrelevant....position and Mayday get the process going, type of distress lets the SAR unit know how to prepare, # aboard lets the rescuers know how long to search based on recoveries so far..... other than that.... the pointy tip of the spear doesn't care too much.


I have even launched on Maydays with no position other than someplace in the Atlantic Ocean.....the order was to burn one tank of fuel, sweeping the most of our area of responsibility that was possible, looking and listening for other forms of distress.

 

[koliver]

So this year we put over 3700 miles on ASD. During our time cruising this year we heard 4 "Maydays." NO DSC was activated.

Victoria Coast Guard went through a list with the boater. Position, folks on board, life jackets, nature of the emergency, Anchor deployed. As stated "fresh" information is the best.

When I was actively involved in RCMSAR, we were never provided with any information that could have come from a DSC database. All information given to us came through JRCC (Joint Rescue Coordination Centre) and was collected by them from Victoria Coast Guard Radio, who in turn collected from the person calling Mayday or Mayday Relay.
Like ASD, I don't recall ever hearing that a DSC was in any way involved.

In other areas, other factors may apply.

 

[Tangler]

I was lucky enough to reach the west coast rep for Raymarine some years ago and he was very helpful and forthcoming..he even sent me his master copy of NW charts to reprogram my 2005 unit...very impressive

 

[Oldsarge]

Even though you have issues with the company, the changing of the MMSI information restriction is due to FCC regulations, and even, or in my case the Si-Tex AIS plotter unit I have falls under the same restrictions. You have to have the proper FCC licence to make changes to such things as the MMSI on equipment that shows MMSI. I have a Restricted Radiotelephone licence and that still doesn't qualify me to change the MMSI.
If you had a used Garmin, I believe you would also have to send it in to change the MMSI.

 

[Oldsarge]

Yes there was a program that came with my AIS unit that allows some changes by a computer, but not the MMSI. Need the proper FCC licence for that.

 

[Oldsarge]

Still in my opinion the best is the Lat/Lon coordinates that will allow a rescue regardless of how it is transmitted to the rescuers. I got stranded out in Lake Michigan once and the Coast Guard came and towed me back to port. I was able to verbally give them my coordinates and they showed up a short time later. Of course whenever you are contacting the Coast Guard be prepared to have your boat thoroughly inspected for compliance with regulations. As a side note any donations to the Coast Guard Foundation is appreciated. The foundation tries to make the Coast Guard personnel and their families lives better for their dangerous ongoing service.

 

[Rich wilmer]

Be aware that you need a FCC MMSI if you plan to travel outside of the US.

BoatUS MMSI for domestic use only.

I think we discussed this a couple of months ago - I think Boat US should discontinue issuing MMSI numbers. There is no reason for people not to have an FCC issued one.

My#works in BC so I dont know why you need a different listing unless your going to Europe