Missing Firefighters Update

[Wayfarer]

I was the MOB in an MOB situation a little over 30 years ago. I can tell you that treading water watching the boat cruise away when nobody on board notices that you're overboard is not awesome. I could see them in teh cockpit, but they weren't paying attention to the stern and couldn't hear me.

I watched until the boat was out of sight. I was wearing a PFD. There were no PLB's in the mid 1980's.

This is the stuff of nightmares. Every time we do a MOB drill I can’t help but imagine being in the water, seeing the lights of my vessel getting smaller and smaller on the horizon, until they eventually disappear. What an overwhelming feeling of helplessness. You might as well be on the moon at that point.

I sure am glad they found you.

 

[High Wire]

Here is what they are looking for...

Sad.

https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/fancy_images/USDHSCG/2019/08/2755409/img-0039-2_original.jpg

 

[stubones99]

I spoke to a guy who claimed to know one of the two missing firefighters last night. He said the boat was a Robalo boat with no flotation installed that was owned by the late father of one of the firefighters, and they were "taking it out one last time, before putting it on the market."
According to this guy, the boat had not been used for a while but seemed sound. He said it had a fish finder, GPS, VHF radio but no ELT / EPIRB.

He said this boat could easily sink if holed since it was older than the time when they started requiring flotation to be installed on smaller vessels.

 

[caltexflanc]

You need to get over to the Hull Truth boating forum and check the enormous thread "BIL missing..." and you'll see almost none of that is true.

 

[ssobol]

... He said this boat could easily sink if holed since it was older than the time when they started requiring flotation to be installed on smaller vessels.

Boats the size of the one lost are not required to have positive flotation. They may have put it in on some models for as a market discriminator, but it is not a CG requirement. CG flotation rules are for boats 20 ft or less.

https://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/assets/builders-handbook/FLOTATION.pdf

 

[diver dave]

I owned a 1974 Robalo 23 center console for a time decades ago. Was under the impression, at the time, that the construction was similar to boston whalers, my previous boat.

But, that brand was sold several times in the next decades, and it is with low certaintly that a particular year will actually float with confidence. As previously noted, even having foam is no guarantee of future performance. Like a fire extinguisher and a few other things, testing a particular boat for this characteristic, will be at least partially destructive, and therefore not done at the owners dime.

 

[Blissboat]

This has been a troubling story to follow. Conditions during the early hours and days of the search were reasonably favorable, and the CG, as well as other agencies, plus a lot of volunteers, poured everything into the search. All that turned up was a soft tackle bag. In addition to the sadness about the loss of these two guys, it now seems likely that we'll never even know what happened.

It's unclear how experienced the two were offshore, but as veteran emergency first responders, it seems they would have been risk-minded about any activity. It's surprising that they would have gone past the jetties without an EPIRB, but reportedly (and evidently) that's the sad case.

A lot of folks around Jacksonville have been hoping and praying for a different outcome.

 

[Group9]

The moral of this incident, is that having a PLB or EPIRB can turn a tragedy into a funny bar story.

 

[ssobol]

...It's unclear how experienced the two were offshore, but as veteran emergency first responders, it seems they would have been risk-minded about any activity. It's surprising that they would have gone past the jetties without an EPIRB, but reportedly (and evidently) that's the sad case....

Perhaps they were a bit overconfident in their ability to handle things. Being a good firefighter might not be that helpful as a boater, unless the boat is actually on fire.

Since that boat reportedly had not been used for some time, the prudent thing would be to try it in a bay or inshore first, rather than heading straight offshore.

 

[Wayne.B]

A PLB is great almost anywhere you are on the water.

Cell phones are great but....a dead spot could kill you... Same with radios.

===


Cell phones are only good within 5 to 10 miles of shore; VHF radio with a decent antenna is good out to 20 or more miles. More importantly a VHF can put you in touch with nearby boats. Of course if your boat is capsized or half sunk neither will do you any good which is why a floating EPIRB is best.

 

[psneeld]

===


Cell phones are only good within 5 to 10 miles of shore; VHF radio with a decent antenna is good out to 20 or more miles. More importantly a VHF can put you in touch with nearby boats. Of course if your boat is capsized or half sunk neither will do you any good which is why a floating EPIRB is best.

The operative wording in my statement about radios is a dead spot can cause even short range comms to fail.


VHFs are good and should be primary but I still believe in a PLB as a backup.


EPIRBS aren't always attached to you so it may or may not be "better". A good rule of thumb in survival situations is often all you wind up with is what is attached to you/in your pockets.

 

[thataway]

A very tragic outcome. We have no idea what happened, from being run down, to having a thru hull fail, and the boat sinking with failed bilge pumps etc.

In such an emergency--first survive, second have positive floatation, third get into a life raft, 4th call for help. We have PLB on both of our inflatable life jackets, as well as a DSC equipped waterproof hand held VHF and a strobe light. I always have the water proof ditch bag, along my side at the helm.

On all of our boats we have written emergency procedures. We started that when offshore ocean racing, and then expanded when long distance cruising and crossing oceans with friends who might not have a plan for emergencies. Person Overboard, Fire, Flooding, being run down, medical emergency (I am an MD, my wife an ALS RN) capsize etc all had a written plan, laminated to be waterproof. This may be overkill for a 24 foot center console, but it is something which is always worthwhile to have considered before there is that emergency.

 

[Flatsflyer]

Missing Firefighters

50 to 60 miles off shore, sharks. If they went in the water they where gone within an hour or so. Friends that fish this area say sharks are as thick that they just nudge their boat all the time.

 

[diver dave]

50 to 60 miles off shore, sharks. If they went in the water they where gone within an hour or so. Friends that fish this area say sharks are as thick that they just nudge their boat all the time.

HA! your friends are just trying to keep you from fishing the red snapper grounds.

 

[Bigsfish]

Let me preface my remarks by saying I am not implying this is what happened in this case.

Many years ago a friend of mine went out on his boat and was never seen again, Boat was found a few days later with his blood inside it. His wife collected the large life insurance policy after the number of years passed required by law when a body is never found. Skip about 20 years and he is seen in Rio with his girlfriend of prewife days. It seems he had someone take him off his boat and sent the boat to the Bahamas with the engine running.

 

[Group9]

They could still be drifting out there, on their way to England. From having experienced looking for small boats from aircraft, it's pretty easy to miss one. White hulls blend in with whitecaps pretty good.

 

[OldDan1943]

I am sure the USCG got ahead of the boat and occupants. Go up the Gulf Stream and search backwards, against the current, figuring the drift rate.

 

[psneeld]

Search and rescue starts like detective work.


First you start out trying to find the likely point of trouble.


Often that is way off due to bad info or just no info.


After that you assume a point and search all around hoping the point you picked was somewhere near the middle based on assumption errors.


After that you use whatever data to determine the set and drift of the possible survivors...again a wild a** assumption unless you guess right as to whether they are still in the boat, liferaft, lifejackets, nothing, the ACTUAL on scene drift conditions, etc...etc...



If your interested.... the USCG addendum to the National SAR manual...


https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/CG-5R/manuals/COMDTINST%20M16130.2F.pdf

 

[Bigsfish]

At this point one has to wonder how long can they survive without water and/or food.

I’m sure our Coast Guard are the best at this job but each day that passes more and more luck is needed.

 

[psneeld]

At this point one has to wonder how long can they survive without water and/or food.

I’m sure our Coast Guard are the best at this job but each day that passes more and more luck is needed.

Was around when my unit found a Air Guard pilot that survived in a one man liferaft for 7 days off Hatteras. Just the roll of pocket candy that we had in our survival vests and the dew he licked off the raft every morning.



Will to live is your best survival tool.

 

[Bigsfish]

Lucky pilot.

 

[psneeld]

Lucky pilot.

That's the part of life we all hope stays on our side.


But he did his job and the USCG did its job. Happy ending.

 

[Bigsfish]

Scott, I have some friends who are PJs and some of their rescue stories send chills down my spine. Some is science, some will, some luck and some God’s will.

 

[Blissboat]

The guys were headed out at about mid-day, to fish a popular reef (the so-called "8A Reef") approx. 14 miles east of Port Canaveral. Assuming they reached their destination, they were almost certainly on their spot within an hour or so of launching. Then what happened?

The water depth on the reef runs around 70-80 feet. Did they anchor, or drift? If they anchored, trouble might have started when they sought to recover the hook. Inexperienced boaters often try to recover an entangled anchor using the engine. Surrendering to the temptation to use maximum power, they move the anchor line onto a stern cleat, and go for it. The next thing to happen is that the stern dips while the boat remains stationary. A swell can then easily overtop the transom, and you have a flooded cockpit.

That's exactly what happened to four football players who in 2009 swamped their 21' Everglades center console in the Gulf of Mexico, about 40 miles west of Clearwater. One guy survived to tell the tale.

If these two firefighters swamped their 24' Robalo in this manner, I wonder if the wreck might be located on the bottom somewhere in the vicinity of the reef. That might at least solve part of the mystery.

 

[Group9]

I am sure the USCG got ahead of the boat and occupants. Go up the Gulf Stream and search backwards, against the current, figuring the drift rate.

That's who I was flying with. It's harder than you think.

Remember those two missing teenagers four years back? No one sighted their boat, despite massive search efforts. And, it floated to England.

https://people.com/human-interest/austin-stephanos-perry-cohen-lost-at-sea-3-years-later/

 

[OldDan1943]

That's who I was flying with. It's harder than you think.

Remember those two missing teenagers several months back? No one sighted their boat, despite massive search efforts. And, it floated to England.

They didn't have a visa and passport so they could 'land'?

Whatever happened to the program to use pigeons to scan the sea surface?

 

[Group9]

They didn't have a visa and passport so they could 'land'?

Whatever happened to the program to use pigeons to scan the sea surface?

Best thing, after electronic communication and alert devices, is a good strobe. Through the night vision goggles, we could see those at night twenty miles away.

 

[diver dave]

I stand corrected : Edda Fjord happened across the 20’ seacraft 100 miles off Bermuda. Then, the whole cell phone mess started with lawsuits following. Quite messy.
I ran a 20’ seacraft out of ft lauderdale in the early ‘80’s, but grew up in jupiter. I followed this story quite closely.

 

[High Wire]

The guys were headed out at about mid-day, to fish a popular reef (the so-called "8A Reef") approx. 14 miles east of Port Canaveral. Assuming they reached their destination, they were almost certainly on their spot within an hour or so of launching. Then what happened?

The water depth on the reef runs around 70-80 feet. Did they anchor, or drift? If they anchored, trouble might have started when they sought to recover the hook. Inexperienced boaters often try to recover an entangled anchor using the engine. Surrendering to the temptation to use maximum power, they move the anchor line onto a stern cleat, and go for it. The next thing to happen is that the stern dips while the boat remains stationary. A swell can then easily overtop the transom, and you have a flooded cockpit.

That's exactly what happened to four football players who in 2009 swamped their 21' Everglades center console in the Gulf of Mexico, about 40 miles west of Clearwater. One guy survived to tell the tale.

If these two firefighters swamped their 24' Robalo in this manner, I wonder if the wreck might be located on the bottom somewhere in the vicinity of the reef. That might at least solve part of the mystery.

If the boat sank on Reef 8a wouldn’t there be other fishing boats there?
I’m with you on the fouled anchor sinking theory.
It happens fast
No time for a VHF call
No boat to find on the surface
No time to grab life jackets that are stored in the console
And if there’s good current the fishermen are treading water down current pdq.
Wonder if anyone searched 8a with sidescan sonar?

 

[Bigsfish]

A friend of mine was fishing off Key Biscayne at night, anchored up mutton fishing. They caught their fish and were ready to come in but fouled the anchor on the outboard. Took waves over the stern and got off the boat, found their cooler and used it to swim to shore. Life jackets were in the bow and they couldn’t get to them.