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Old 11-04-2019, 02:21 PM   #21
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Interesting discussion, glad it is not my decision to make.
I would also be concerned about potentially losing the ability to increase speed in adverse conditions such as larger following seas and wind. Many times I have been able to improve our ride considerably by increasing our speed (semi displacement). Having the extra horsepower to do this is a good thing in my opinion.. however, how much hp do you really need??
Firehoser75,
Iíve bucked a lot of wind and 6-7í seas in my 30í 37hp boat and never had to increase rpm to go as fast as I wanted to go. Usually slow down to control pitching. With oxygen tents and such it may be different.
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Old 11-04-2019, 02:26 PM   #22
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Firehoser75,
Iíve bucked a lot of wind and 6-7í seas in my 30í 37hp boat and never had to increase rpm to go as fast as I wanted to go. Usually slow down to control pitching. With oxygen tents and such it may be different.
But increasing speed in following seas may be good. Donít need to do it for control though as my rudder is large and swings 90 degrees.
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:00 PM   #23
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Hi Eric,
If I remember correctly, your Willard is a full displacement hull, while mine and the OP are semi-displacement. My rudder, while reasonably sized, is probably smaller (at least proportionately) than yours Not bragging about that though
Even though it may seem counterintuitive, speeding up to at least the same speed as the waves, can really smooth out the ride when "running downwind" or in following seas. Having the HP available to achieve this can at times be helpful in an SD hull. This can also improve steerage.

Just what I have experienced, especially crossing the Salish Sea when the wind as kicked up more than expected. Head on, slow down, I agree.
Not sure about the O2 tent thingy??
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:19 PM   #24
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I don't think you'll save much fuel because the smaller engines will be working harder. The load is the same, but each engine has two less cylinders to share in the work. You could even use more fuel because your load isn't in the ideal power range.
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:43 PM   #25
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I think he'll likely use less fuel. His old engines were probably worn out. Plus he was running them at 20-25% load, which is a horrible place for most old mechanical engines. The little 80's will be run at 50-70% which should be ideal. He can check the fuel curves.
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Old 11-04-2019, 08:11 PM   #26
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Smaller displacement engines should burn at least slightly less fuel for the same output due to lower pumping losses. Of course, diesels scale fairly well for load vs fuel burn. And turbodiesels will scale a bit better than N/A ones.
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Old 11-04-2019, 08:39 PM   #27
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Thank you all for your replies.

I've been going back and forth and don't disagree that a pair of FL120's would be ideal but getting them in the boat may be an issue. Taking the old iron out we can strip off everything and get it out. The 80's will fit through the side the window but I don't think the 120s will.

The other factor is that is boat was never going to be my "forever" boat so I could sell as-is and let someone choose their power OR sell a running vessel.

At the risk of getting this thread off track, what would you do? Sell "as is" or get some working engines in the ER and sell?
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Old 11-04-2019, 08:45 PM   #28
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What's wrong with the current engines that they have to come out?
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Old 11-04-2019, 09:05 PM   #29
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Port engine is seized and starboard engine had a severe overheat issue (so much white smoke poured out of the ER it looked like we had selected a new Pope).

According to Brian an America Marine, he does not have all the parts to rebuild so I'm better off removing and replacing.

Mechanic's insurance company is involved as is mine, but from mine, I will only get policy limits and the mechanic's liability insurance may not cover the damage due to the economic loss rule.
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Old 11-04-2019, 09:14 PM   #30
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At the risk of getting this thread off track, what would you do? Sell "as is" or get some working engines in the ER and sell?
Hard call.
Dead engines make the boat near worthless. Most would calculate the cost of new or rebuilt engines plus all the labor to install subtracted from the average value of the boat with working engines.

If you replace the engines with what would be considered an odd choice, or they don't perform as desired, most people will pass or low ball price the boat.

Think you need to get the boat running with reasonable choice engines. Then keep it or sell it.

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Old 11-04-2019, 09:17 PM   #31
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I guess that prompts another question: Being that the boat was powered for more than displacement speed before, what was the top speed with the pair of 225s? And how did it run at higher speeds? That may help determine if it's worth keeping that ability or just powering for hull speed plus a little.
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Old 11-04-2019, 09:43 PM   #32
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She was always 10-12 knot boat. I'd need way more power to get her to the 14-15 knot range. The boat looks exactly like a Hatteras 48 CPMY. Thinking of Hatteras, guess I could find some Detroit 6v53s or 6v71s.
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Old 11-04-2019, 10:15 PM   #33
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From what minimal pictures I can find of the CHB 48 hull, it looks like it should be possible to get it to plane decently, but probably a bit draggy with the big keel, etc. I found some numbers indicating around 12 kts at WOT with a pair of 250hp Volvos. And another boat showing 18 kts at WOT with 375hp Cat 3208s. 50% more power giving 50% more speed indicates to me that somewhere after 12 kts it gets over the drag hump and gets onto some decent kind of plane.

So it would definitely take some power to get it to run any decent speed. But if you were to swap in something like a Cummins B series, other than a bit of extra cost and needing to worry about aftercooler maintenance, I don't see a big downside to putting in a higher powered version that could let it run faster. It shouldn't be any less happy or efficient at low speed than the lower rated versions of the same engine.

Of course, that's all dependent on what engines fit the budget and fit in the available space (and can be gotten in / out of the boat).
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Old 11-04-2019, 11:40 PM   #34
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I don't think two 80hp fords would prevent but a few sales. That boat is simply never practical to run at planing speeds. Any buyer that is looking for that is off their rocker. The market wants good hull speed performance with that hull, and the 80's should do that just fine.

How many of these hulls do you see going down the ditch on plane? Zero, and for good reason. They never did it well, it burned an a$$ of fuel, and was hard as heck on the engines. All the ones still alive run hull speed and buyers are looking for just that.
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Old 11-05-2019, 12:33 AM   #35
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This boat appears to be in the PNW. Here in the PNW we routinely see tidal currents up to 6 kts. While we mostly cruise around hull speed we do enjoy the ability to push it up to 14kts in order to punch through these currents. Ponderosa 48’s have a reputation of being capable of 14 kts. Having a P48 only capable of 8 kts is going to be a bigger turn off then you might expect. That said, it won’t turn off every one.

Problem with the 80’s, who is installing them and how much modification will be necessary? Direct replacement drop ins are usually the cheapest way to go. If the 80’s take a lot of installation modifications you could end up over spending your savings.

Frankly, there is no easy answer to the OP’s question.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:20 AM   #36
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I don't think two 80hp fords would prevent but a few sales. That boat is simply never practical to run at planing speeds. Any buyer that is looking for that is off their rocker. The market wants good hull speed performance with that hull, and the 80's should do that just fine.

How many of these hulls do you see going down the ditch on plane? Zero, and for good reason. They never did it well, it burned an a$$ of fuel, and was hard as heck on the engines. All the ones still alive run hull speed and buyers are looking for just that.

My views exactly.


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Old 11-05-2019, 09:22 AM   #37
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I can't believe I am going to disagree with Brian at A.D. but here goes..

Regarding the stuck engine. Unstick it! It is one of two areas which caused it to stick. The first is rust in the cylinders, not an impossible fix. Pull the head and start looking for rust. hone it and reassemble. The other reason could be a binding of parts, bearings, rods, crank. You might have to lift the engine to inspect but shouldn't have to remove it.

The other engine most certainly has a blown head gasket. Pull the head, have it honed and install a new gasket.

Brian might not have every part for a total rebuild but you really don't need total rebuilds, just repairs. What he doesn't have Bomac might have. Or maybe a farm implement dealer.

I REALY think you can make those engines work. If you are convinced they have to come apart to remove them anyway, you are halfway home.


Unless you can do 90% of the work yourself just pulling the two engines and installing two different engines will cost you a minimum of $7,000. Plus the cost of new engines, even cheap will be $10,000, plus new mounts and perhaps new props, probably another $5,000.
You are pushing $25,000. I know you can repair those two F.L.s for a LOT less.

You don't say what year your boat is but it's doubtful you will come close to recapping your money if you swap engines, especially if you downsize to 90's. It just might become your "forever' boat.

P.S. How are the tanks, don't overlook them while the engines are out or apart.

Good Luck,

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Old 11-05-2019, 10:37 AM   #38
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Another thought - you have a SD hull that will run continuously at about 7knots. The hull will not perform as well as a FD hull designed for that.

That means little in smooth waters, but in rough seas (especially big following seas) it will be a constant battle at the wheel.

Since you likely will dry dock it to reprop, you should seriously consider increasing your rudder area.
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Old 11-05-2019, 01:21 PM   #39
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I don't think two 80hp fords would prevent but a few sales. That boat is simply never practical to run at planing speeds. Any buyer that is looking for that is off their rocker. The market wants good hull speed performance with that hull, and the 80's should do that just fine.

How many of these hulls do you see going down the ditch on plane? Zero, and for good reason. They never did it well, it burned an a$$ of fuel, and was hard as heck on the engines. All the ones still alive run hull speed and buyers are looking for just that.

I agree fully and as long as you’ve got about 6hp per ton of displacement you should get the stated “6-7 knots” speed.
I think if you research a bit you’ll find comparative information that will confirm that running two 80hp FL’s at 50-60% load you’ll get at least 6 knots continuous speed. If yo find you need to load the engines ar 75% you should abort. Your boat will be at least 1000lbs lighter.

Agree fully w mako you should lengthen the rudders. Or on both edges.
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:09 PM   #40
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I am humbled by your responses and help. All you comments are versions of conversations I have had in my head and some I have not even considered.

As I go back and forth, I think Pete's suggestion may make the most sense.

Anyway you cut it, I'm going to have to remove the engines, be it for less HP, same HP or more HP. (sunk cost estimate $5K)

With the blank slate and an empty ER, what gives the biggest bang for the buck?

1. Replace with reman Cummins (50K engines and transmissions + $50K parts and install labor)
2. Replace with running takeouts (maybe get lucky with a pair of FL 120s) ($25K for pair + $50K parts and install labor)
3. Find a pair of FL120's and rebuild them ($30K full rebuild + $50K parts and install labor)
4. Rebuild/repair the FL 225s (BTW-PO bypassed intercoolers b/c of corrosion so engines are now 180hp - when running) ($25K fix +$25K parts and install labor; guessing install labor would be less because no engine bed work)

Options 2 and 3 do not guarantee current Newage/PRM transmissions will work, and props will not need to be tuned to new power.

With option 4 at least I know everything will go back in and mate with current transmissions. I have also built in my parts and labor figure knowing I want to re-route exhaust and re-do current fuel delivery/valving set-up.

Although everything on the boat is new (Garmin electronics suite, bow thruster, electrical, heating, galley, canvas, sanitation system, and the list goes on, ALL done in the past 6 months at a cost of $150K) I'm realistic that even with all the upgrades, it's still a $95-$110K boat.

With all of the above in mind, does it still make sense to keep the boat and rebuild or repower or cut my losses and let it go to someone who may have the skills and time to do the work themselves.

I realize I have hijacked my own conversation so if you think this should be a separate thread, I'll create a new post.

Thanks for your input!
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