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Old 12-05-2014, 09:59 AM   #141
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For newbies......

There usually a big difference in the approach in fitting out a boat that is lived on or cruises for months at a time than a weekender. Liveaboards/long term cruisers will almost always ensure the basics of life are at the top of the "needs" list. Things that give a good night's sleep, if that includes air conditioning then so be it. If they want fresh produce that needs a big galley with gadgets...so be it. Heads can play an important part. A comfy place to "lounge".

Even liveaboards run the gamut of sparse to luxurious but for that I would say much is ultimately fiancial and then limited by boat volume/capability. One huge factor is climate the boat will be used in if the owner doesn't have the option to change it.

Finally, you just have personal preference. Some love washing dishes by hand. Some may prefer to grill 90% of their food and want a flying bridge or cockpit with a huge built in wet bar grilling area and the interior galley might be tiny. Ya just never know what people consider "necessary".
Well put!

I'm pleased that you took the "newbie's" feelings and understanding into consideration here. I too often (as do other TF Members/Contributors) get too self-centered and neglect to appreciate newbie feelings/concerns/needs.

We TF contributors often chat back and forth on posts here like the aspect of boat ownership is second nature to us - And, it has become so after decades of experience in all sorts of marine life conditions... we know a lot point-blank, "like the back of our hand"! We do however also learn even more from each other by sharing important, or simply fun, personal experiences from years of living the marine life - in one form or another. But, for the newbie I'm sure we experienced mariners' in-depth chats can quickly become a fog of "OMG I never realized there is so much to deal with by owning a boat."

Sooo... in addition to your well phrased post above: I would like to assure newbies that owning a boat is not rocket science; although there is lots to be aware of. And, once getting well enmeshed into the lifestyle (no matter at which level of marine doings you desire to be involved) there is great camaraderie available via forums, co-boaters at marinas, general links throughout the web, and marine folks you'll meet while out and about in the water enjoying your chosen boat.

I will caution that boating at any level, to be properly lived, requires a high amount of commitment and certainly enough ca$h to be sure and see things through. Most boats are not the same as a car; wherein you can park it for couple years, dust it off, flip the key, and take to the road. Boats require a certain amount of ongoing care (much depending on the boat's type, age, size, condition, and location/space of rest). Humidity, types of water, and actions around water are some of the items that contribute to what/how-much care a boat needs.

This forum has an unusual amount of magic embedded throughout its performance-design and the boaters attending... in that, this has the most open minded, eclectic/diverse group of repeat contributing members I've experienced on any Boating Forum.

I can say to newbies: Ask any question about marine life or boating in general and you will most likely get a satisfactory group of answers on TF. Also, use the search feature well. Most every item you will think of has probably been hashed over before by all sorts of experienced mariner folks.

Get It ON! Join Trawler Forum. Become a Boater. ENJOY YOUR NEW BOATING LIFE!

Happy Boating Daze! - Art
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Old 12-05-2014, 06:33 PM   #142
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I'm pleased that you took the "newbie's" feelings and understanding into consideration here. I too often (as do other TF Members/Contributors) get too self-centered and neglect to appreciate newbie feelings/concerns/needs....... I would like to assure newbies that owning a boat is not rocket science; although there is lots to be aware of.
This is all very true.

My wife and I, but particularly me, are really glad we got into boating (and flying and most of the other things we do) long before Al Gore invented the internet.

I heard a radio interview the other month with a well-known (but not to me) author who bcame curious about the differences between people who had grown up and lived at least part of their adult lives without the internet and people who had never known a world that didn't have the internet. He chose 1985 as the dividing year. He spent well over a year researching the topic, interviewing all sorts of people and so on. And then he wrote his book.

In a nutshell, his conclusions were this:

People who grew up without the internet and who have lived at least part of their working, adult lives without it are considerably more independent, are much more able to make decisions on their own, know how to look up or otherwise find information on their own, are inclined to make the effort to learn the truth about a subject themselves, are better able to tell truth from fiction, and are more resourceful.

People who grew up with the internet as part of their lives from day one are far less independent, are much more reliant on a group to make decisions than on themselves as individuals, tend to take what they read or hear in the media as gospel as opposed to making the effort to learn the truth on their own, and are easily swayed in their actions or beliefs by whatever they perceive to be the accepted way of thinking in the media they rely on.

And when confronted with a problem that they don't understand--- a power outage, a car that won't start, a toilet that won't shut off, etc.---- they tend to panic because they lack the mindset that's required to apply logic, common sense, and at least a basic understanding of mechanics or physics or whatever to try to fix the problem.

In summary, the pre-internet folks are independent, the post-internet folks are dependent.

This applies to cruising because most of us on this forum got into boating long before the internet. Which means that we learned from people more experienced than we were, but most important, we learned by doing and applying common sense and logic to the situations we encountered. We crossed each bridge when we came to it, and we had to rely on our own knowledge, common sense, and resources to decide how best to cross the bridge.

One of the challenges with getting into cruising today is there is too much information being dumped on everyone. You get on a forum like this and read an anchor discussion, for example, and the conclusion one can get is that it's easier to go to the moon and back than to figure out what kind of anchor to get.

Us pre-internet folks bought a cruiser, it either came with an anchor or we bought one, maybe we read a book about anchoring, but we simply started anchoring. It either worked or caused problems, and we either figured out or were told by more experienced folks how to do a better job of anchoring, or we tried a different anchor, or both.

The internet crowd looks at all the stuff that's talked about on a forum and thinks they have to learn it all before they can buy a boat. They ask for advice on what kind of a boat to buy, a question us pre-internet folks know is an impossible question to answer with any accuracy because of all the variables that apply. It's a decision that has to be made by the individual, not by a group.

A forum like this can be a great source of information. But I think it's really important to be able to see the forest for the trees.

The best way in my opinion to get into cruising is to first do the research necessary to make the decision of what boat to buy. Which in my book does not mean asking a bunch of people you don't know to answer the question for you, but to talk to experienced boaters in your area, friends who are experienced cruisers, read stuff about cruising, and perhaps look at boat evaluation sites like David Pascoe's. Chartering a boat is a fabulous way to learn all sorts of things firsthand about cruising.

Then, using your own common sense, logic, and "gut feel" to tell you what boat will work best for you, buy a boat that meets your requirements and start using it.

Taken the way us pre-internet folks took it--- crossing one bridge at a time, constantly learning along the way, learning by doing rather than discussing--- cruising is, as Al said, not rocket science.

You can easliy turn it into rocket science by getting bogged down in all the information (correct or misleading) and discussions on the internet. But I think that's the wrong way to do it.

In my observation and opinion, the best boaters are the independent, self-taught folks who instinctively rely on themselves to deal with the challenges that come up. People like Eric (manyboats), Carl (Delfin), Al (FlyWright), psneeld, Art, Sunchaser, Rick Boggs, OldFishboat, Tad, Ted, Northern Spy, RT, Ron, and the list goes on.

The worst boaters, I think, are the dependent folks who are constantly looking for "input" and consensus when figuring out what to do.

How does this relate to minimalist cruising? Well, it doesn't other than to say that if you come across a fellow with a truly minimalist cruiser, it's most likely going to be a pre-internet boater.

Sorry for the ramble but I'm waiting for a computer to stop drawing a line across the screen and anyway, Art started it......
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Old 12-05-2014, 07:22 PM   #143
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I personally think it was beeper and cell phones that destroyed independent thinking...not the Internet per se.

I see it in families, organizations, government.....now everyone has to check in and the top cell phone is king.

When I was a young duty stander I the USCG....if the world was coming to an end in 5 min, we had a procedure to take a care of it and I was empowered to do so.

Now, after 7 cell phone calls and 25 minutes after the world ended, the duty stander has an opinion of some experienced guy who barely knows all the facts.

I'mean sure the Internet has played a role...but every minute of every day I see things going on where cell connections replace responsibility or independent thinking.

They are great...don't get me wrong...but they are all too often misused.

OK..just reread and see that yes the internet was an equal hammer in making independent decisions a quagmire...between the two techs...they are a blessing for the adept and a quagmire for the others.
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Old 12-05-2014, 07:23 PM   #144
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When you figure that a single cubic foot has 1728 cubic inches... and many of the boats here are powered by 100 to 700 +/- cubic inches... we're all minimalists to some extent!

Jump into that one Marin!

BTW: Interesting post you gave regarding pre net and after net outlook on solving problems. Tiz a different mental-slant world in which two types people exist. If sun spot magnetic fields actually did ever short out world circuits... Our age would simply shrug and carry on! The youngsters would be clueless!
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Old 12-05-2014, 08:38 PM   #145
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...between the two techs...they are a blessing for the adept and a quagmire for the others.
Yes. One difference is that for the most part, the pre-internet folks have realized how to use the technology--- be it mobile phones, the web, e-mail, Twitter, etc--- to make it easier to accomplish certain tasks. But we don't depend on it, nor does it dominate our lives.

The post-internet folks absolutely depend on it, and it dominates their lives to a large degree, or in some cases completely. Hence the increasingly consensus attitute in this country (and the world). And the increasingly knee-jerk reaction to just about everything.

The really bad thing about this is that it takes time to determine, look at, and assess facts. And time is not the knee-jerk media's friend. So you get reporting and stories and tweets and internet discussions based on feelings, not facts.

Where this really gets dangerous is when the knee-jerk, "feelings" reaction is based on incorrect facts. As several threads the other year discussed, the initial reaction to the sinking of the Bounty replica was that the captain was a hero and saved all but one of his crew.. This is a great "feelings" story and it's how the sinking was presented by the media.

Only later, as people with a more independent and realistic view began looking at the facts did it become more and more obvious that the whole thing was an unmitigated disaster, the responsibility for which rested pretty squarely on the incompetence and poor judgment of the captain. He wasn't a hero, he was, some might say, a murderer.

Unfortunately, by the time this all came out, the media--- and thus their avid and dependent followers--- had long since moved on to something else so the majority continued to believe the initial hype.

We see this more and more. The protests over the Ferguson grand jury decision continue, here in Seattle at least. And the chant that binds them all together is "hands up, don't shoot."

But it's been shown without a doubt by the witnesses that Michael Brown did not put his hands up and was, in fact, charging the policeman when he was shot. The facts are there, but the media-dependent crowd has glommed onto the intial, hysterical "feelings" reaction and continues to believe it.

So, to bring this back around to boating and cruising, I'm a big proponent in trying to get people, particularly newcomers to the cruising world, to do their own research, and engage in their own face-to-face conversations with people in their area with cruising experience. Forget the keyboard and go out and get their own hands-on experience with a charter or two, and THINK about what they really want in a boat and then FIGURE OUT which boat of the zillions that are on the market will be best.

Treat it like researching a paper for school. Don't treat it like asking a friend to write a paper for you.
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Old 12-05-2014, 09:44 PM   #146
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Great two posts Marin.
I'm open to another rant like that anytime.
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Old 12-05-2014, 11:11 PM   #147
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I don't know that it was a rant so much as an frustrating observation. But I'm not going to pursue it anymore here because it's getting too far away from the topic of the thread and too close to OTDE.
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Old 12-06-2014, 08:21 AM   #148
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I personally think it was beeper and cell phones that destroyed independent thinking...not the Internet per se.
...
Did you say cell phones?
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Old 12-06-2014, 09:32 AM   #149
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Did you say cell phones?
That driver should be stopped! The action of driving while dialing (especially while texting) is killing way too many innocent people.

21st Century society has become addicted (hypnotized into) need for constant communication. Too much of it meaningless. Next level is implanted systems into a person's body. That too will become a hypnotic fad. Then there will be deeper high tech levels for control after that. We've sliding down a very slippery slope that will amount to pervasive, nearly total human control.

Notice the symbol for Apple computers/phones/communication devices??!! Eve was first. Too many are following.

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Old 12-06-2014, 10:07 AM   #150
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That driver should be stopped! The action of driving while dialing (especially while texting) is killing way too many innocent people.

21st Century society has become addicted (hypnotized into) need for constant communication. Too much of it meaningless. Next level is implanted systems into a person's body. That too will become a hypnotic fad. Then there will be deeper high tech levels for control after that. We've sliding down a very slippery slope that will amount to pervasive, nearly total human control.

Notice the symbol for Apple computers/phones/communication devices??!! Eve was first. Too many are following.
You're absolutely right! We did a land trip this summer hitting 30 states and 11K miles. The number of people we saw texting while driving was amazing. You'd see the lane drift and hope you didn't get tangled up in it. Lots of close calls.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:13 AM   #151
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I think it boils down to how simple a person prefers their life to be. Some people gravitate towards (rather than choosing to do so) complicated relationships or high octane/complex careers. Boating for them becomes an extention of their everyday life, so they prefer many complex systems on their boats. Other people prefer a more sedate existence where there is time and freedom to contemplate things other than the complicated needs of a boat.

Generalizations big enough to drive a Panzer through, I know, but remember that if it stings a little it means there's a kernel of truth to it
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:15 AM   #152
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I think it boils down to how simple a person prefers their life to be. Some people gravitate towards (rather than choosing to do so) complicated relationships or high octane/complex careers. Boating for them becomes an extention of their everyday life, so they prefer many complex systems on their boats. Other people prefer a more sedate existence where there is time and freedom to contemplate things other than the complicated needs of a boat.

Generalizations big enough to drive a Panzer through, I know, but remember that if it stings a little it means there's a kernel of truth to it
Well put!
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:24 AM   #153
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When I worked for a living , my employer paid to buy , install and maintain all the crap required for an Line air craft.


At 7 K a hand held GPS , VHF , autopilot , (manual input) and car sterio is about as complex as retirement cruising requires.

And yes a 12G saluting cannon to wake the bridge tenders.
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Old 12-06-2014, 12:14 PM   #154
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When I think of boater minimalist I will always think about when Lin and Larry Pardley built the larger wooden sailboat and made the choice of installing a bath tub in the space designed for an engine. Of course having kerosene lanterns for light and navigating world wide with a sextant was what they had alway done. Larry being the master ship wright could repair any thing on the boat that was wood which was everything. The phrase "Wooden ships and iron men" always came to mind.
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Old 12-06-2014, 01:20 PM   #155
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And yes a 12G saluting cannon to wake the bridge tenders.
I'm drooling over a 10 gauge right now.

I like big boom to accompany my simple 50 year old cruiser.
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Old 12-06-2014, 01:31 PM   #156
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That driver should be stopped! The action of driving while dialing (especially while texting) is killing way too many innocent people.
This link is to a video that was made in Wales a few years ago. Called the "cow video" (short for Cowan, the main character's last name), the 30 minute video was made to illustrate the potential penalties for texting while driving.

The link below is to just the accident portion of the video. The entire video is also on-line. I sent this to a few of my co-workers when I first became aware of it, and they showed it to their kids. They said it was very effective in making them think twice about using their phones in the car....

[url]http://www.usdrivertraining.com/video-texting.php[url]
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Old 12-06-2014, 01:52 PM   #157
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This link is to a video that was made in Wales a few years ago. Called the "cow video" (short for Cowan, the main character's last name), the 30 minute video was made to illustrate the potential penalties for texting while driving.

The link below is to just the accident portion of the video. The entire video is also on-line. I sent this to a few of my co-workers when I first became aware of it, and they showed it to their kids. They said it was very effective in making them think twice about using their phones in the car....

[url]http://www.usdrivertraining.com/video-texting.php[url]
Thank you for posting that link, Marin. My two oldest grand kids will see that Tuesday; a weekly visit night for when they come to dinner.
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Old 12-06-2014, 02:22 PM   #158
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21st Century society has become addicted (hypnotized into) need for constant communication. Too much of it meaningless. Next level is implanted systems into a person's body. That too will become a hypnotic fad. Then there will be deeper high tech levels for control after that. We've sliding down a very slippery slope that will amount to pervasive, nearly total human control.


We are Verizon. Lower your shields and surrender your independence. You will join our new unlimited talk and text family plan with free mobile to mobile. Resistance is futile.
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Old 12-06-2014, 02:42 PM   #159
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We are Verizon. Lower your shields and surrender your independence. You will join our new unlimited talk and text family plan with free mobile to mobile. Resistance is futile.
EEEEEKKKKKK!!!


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Old 12-06-2014, 08:24 PM   #160
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I think it boils down to how simple a person prefers their life to be. Some people gravitate towards (rather than choosing to do so) complicated relationships or high octane/complex careers. Boating for them becomes an extention of their everyday life, so they prefer many complex systems on their boats. Other people prefer a more sedate existence where there is time and freedom to contemplate things other than the complicated needs of a boat.

Generalizations big enough to drive a Panzer through, I know, but remember that if it stings a little it means there's a kernel of truth to it
Hmmm - I think I can drive a bicycle through it. To balance out my crazy high octane career, I live a simple life, simple relationship, simple boat, & don't own a cell phone.
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