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Old 12-01-2014, 08:01 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
That's not true. Most here have been boating for a very long time. They started without the more sofisticated electronics. You confuse lack of seamanship with wanting to have some nice electronic toys to play with. No different than the smart cell phone I have now versus the rotary dial phone I grew up with.

Finally, yes it's your imagination. It's not about superiority, but pride of ownership. Yes, I like to post pics of the prodjects I've done on my boat, but would rather in joy viewing the beautiful boats that others have (boat porn). There is lots of useful information posted everyday on this forum. It just may not be the info you need. Try the archives.

Ted


If you find our Seamanship sadly lacking...feel free to contribute and help us raise our standard.
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:49 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
"Minimalist" is a highfalutin' word for "poor".

Did you actually say that?

Your words are the exact opposite of how we think about things.

They are the exact reason I never talk about my "yacht", and much prefer the word "boat"


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Originally Posted by Willow-B View Post
More & more I see more & more lavish boats, err yachts out there. These yachts have more & more electronic stuff crammed into, onto and around the helms. This conglomeration of electronic crap is not a replacement for seamanship. These yacht owners DO look down upon anyone who doesn't have a boat which is top heavy with unnecessary garbage they deem essential. I believe It is essential to many due to their lack of seamanship. Most need multiples of spare electronics because they can NOT navigate without it. I joined this forum to gather info. So far all I have read is mostly folks spouting superiority (my imagination?) I think NOT.
If you look past the very few here regarding "superiority" you'll see that yes allot of folks here depend on their electronics for navigation.

I am one of that group. I do have good and yes redundant electronic navigation for no other reason than having it makes me a better captain.

Yes, I will admit I cannot use a sextant, but I have much better situational awareness than my forefathers ever dreamed of. That knowledge does not take away from my seamship skills, it adds to them.

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Originally Posted by kulas44 View Post
A lot of folks that own yachts (use your definition) are the "look at me, look at me," type, where bigger and flashier is apparently better. They are not so much the "go somewhere do stuff meet people see places" kind of folks. I can afford most things on a boat that I might want, but I got to much crap already. I will admit to being lazy. I know how to navigate with a chart and all the tools but either or any of my 3 GPSs do it more easily. I can watch the barometer and wind direction/speed and do a fair job of forecasting weather, but my electronic devices do it even better,,,mostly. I dont embrace the minimalist boating lifestyle, but to say they are "poor" is about as ignorant as one can get. By being out there doing it they are richer than most here will ever be, no matter how much money they may (or pretend to) have.
I think at least for most TF members your statement is in error. At least the very first couple of sentences I highlighted.

Here on this forum you'll find and this is just off of the top of my head...
  • A guy that singlehanded his way across the Atlantic.
  • A couple that took their boat on a 5 year expedition from the wast coast to the east coast and through the Panama Canal.
  • A family that just arrived in Hawaii a couple weeks ago.

These are just a few. that I could remember while writing this.

I am not in their league, but I've taken two Bayliners on virgin 1500NM trips from Washington state to Southcentral Alaska, accross the Gulf of Alaska, and both of these were in new boats to me. Yep, land at Seattle with a bunch of tools, and go for it.

If you also look at the boats represented here what you will see for the most part are very functional boats. Yes, most of us will have all the things I would consider "normal" on a large cruising boat, but most of it is again extremely functional.
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:58 AM   #63
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12yrs ago, I ran a 18' center console diesel skiff I put together from NC to Key West right around Christmas. Just in time for a cold front!!! Slept on the open deck in a sleeping bag. Woke up covered in frost. Daytime temps around 40F. No windscreen, I was bundled up like the Michelin Man!! Warmed up Beefaroni on the engine. Ran 20kts until around midnight each day. Took about 5days. Did not break out of the cold front til Stuart.

Learned to NOT warm up sardines on the engine. Cans can't take pressure.

That trip inspired some design details on my present boat: Lower station OUT OF THE WEATHER and GOOD HEAT!!

That's my minimalist story.
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:39 PM   #64
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The ultra-minimalistic approach to sail cruising is quite common and well-promoted by the Pardeys and others.

There's lots of talk on the power boat forums about KISS, but I have yet to see or hear from anyone who has truly applied the minimal approach to power that the sailors seem so comfortable with. My previous boats were rather simple by today's standards (no a/c, water makers, SSB, chart plotter, etc.) But still it was a freakin' headache with gensets, vaccu-flush heads, etc.

Has anyone here actually taken the truly siimplified approach towards their own power-cruising? What type of systems and gear did you dispense with that most of today's press would consider "absolutely necessary?"

Great thread. I would like to develop this concept further - and 'make-up-a-boat', by specifying hull shape, material, LOA, engine, displacement, and of course all equipment desired. Could be fun!
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Old 12-01-2014, 02:17 PM   #65
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Seems to me the "minimalist" approach can be based in several ideals-simplicity, financial need, mindset, etc. But does "minimalism" really make boating more enjoyable? I like many here do not want to give up many of the creature comforts at this point in my life. And my wife does not want to give any! But one thing that has not been mentioned, while we all complain about systems going down, the need for and cost of repairs and maintenance, I am constantly amazed at how well, how consistently well, many marine systems operate over time. On our boat, we have essentially a house with most of its amenities, in a hull that needs to float, that requires propulsion, creates it own electricity for two separate systems (12 VDC and 120VAC), can communicate almost anywhere anytime using multiple means, and can pretty much navigate anywhere in the world. Yet, all the systems needed to create that pretty much work as intended almost all the time. Routine maintenance on almost all those systems can be learned and be done by anyone with only a reasonable ability to learn and follow instructions. I am still amazed that I can walk down the dock, open up the boat, turn everything on, leave the dock in 30 minutes or less, take off and enjoy days away, and then return, shut everything down in 30 minutes or less and return to real life. Very seldom have we had to abort a trip for repairs or problems.
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:02 PM   #66
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Great thread. I would like to develop this concept further - and 'make-up-a-boat', by specifying hull shape, material, LOA, engine, displacement, and of course all equipment desired. Could be fun!
For “simplified” approach in power boat cruising, my family played it pretty darn simple in 1950's/60's/70’s; on each "wood" boat utilized during those years:

- Cabin cruiser 23’ to 38’
- Hull - planing or displacement
- Single or twin engine (gas or diesel) – Full set standard gauges
- Hard or soft top
- Flying bridge or not
- Canvas for closing-up cockpit
- Fuel level check by metered straight stick = 100% accurate
- Sleeping bags
- Physical warmth by portable alcohol “HeatMate” heater(s) as well as using it as food or water warmer
- Lights were 12V and gimbaled kerosene lamps
- Also, by mid-60’s we kept aboard a very small Honda generator… dad then bought a 5” screen Sony TV with its own extension antenna (just like a car antenna). Honda gen would get started and dad would watch Walter Cronkite! We had lots of books and games aboard to keep us all occupied.
- Bath by swimming or sponge
- Wash/dry by shore visit or other means – no mechanical washer aboard
- 13’3” Boston Whaler or other dink as tow behind tender – sometimes a small one on davits
- Ice Box – not electric
- Hand pumped water faucet in galley and head – hot water via galley stove
- Manual pump, direct flush toilet – after all, it was in the 1950’s 60’s – lol
- Hand pump alcohol one or two burner galley stove
- Plenty dry storage – other food as available or seafood caught while aboard
- Drinking – SS water tank kept clean via flushing and small amount bleach per refill; as well as juices, sodas, water jugs filled at stops
- Depth sounder
- Ship to shore
- Compass
- Paper charts and plotting tools
- Accurate time piece and stop watch
- Knowledge of area tides and currents
- Really good navigation skills – including celestial navigation

For many years with equipment mentioned above: We cruised New England coastal and inner waters as family of five, then four, then three, then just the two parents as we three boys had left home. During 60’s RDF became a navigational item we used to check-up on our chart plotting and self-navigation accuracy. Each boat was well dialed in on measured mile speed trials so we knew how fast we were cruising at given rpm. That was calibrated into tides, current speeds, compass reading, and charted miles… so we knew which buoy or landmark to find and change course at. If visibility was too limited we changed course as we’d previously charted as per speed in relation to course and timed-travel. Dad was a magician on navigation accuracy… during WWII RCAF and then U.S. Navy trained him well.

In these days I still keep it fairly simple on "FRP" boat(s) (my additions to above):

1. Electrically integrated, original equipment 7.5 kW Kohler generator on electric panel
2. Pressure sink water at two heads and galley
3. Electric pump floor drain pressure water shower wand in each head
4. Electric toilets each head / with holding and/or LectrSan
5. Hot water heater, charged by electric and starboard engine run
6. 30 amp Shore power on electric panel
7. House bank of batteries with rudimentary charge level meter
8. AC plugs around cabins for plug ins as desired when shore or generator power is on = electric heat too. Still keep HeatMate aboard
9. Three burner, full oven electric stove
10. Microwave and 120 v fridge w/ small freezer
11. Original Coleman ceiling air conditioner – not ever used by us… probably needs recharge
12. House computer for watching movies
13. Radar display at salon pilot station
14. GPS on bridge
15. Flashing light engine rpm synchronizers at each pilot station - luv em!
16. Gas gauges – don’t trust em – still use weighted drop string for 100% accurate fuel level check. Also, have twin screw Flowscan and plan to eventually install… no rush
17. And, Oh yeah… Master stateroom with queen size and double size beds / forward stateroom with big v-berth. Both with fully equipped private heads.

I’m a bit more complicated in boating than my family was in mid-20th Century. However, by today’s recreational marine standards… I run fairly deep on the KISS factor, keeping complications to minimum!

Simple Is As Simple Does! - Art
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:23 PM   #67
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Wow, this is a great read. Everyone has such varying degrees of the minimalistic needs. I'm curious what the OP is doing as I'm sure that would dictate what you would need. I would say at minimum a VHF, lights, and a PFD. One keeps you from being hit, one allows you to say I've been hit, and the last keeps you floating when hit happens...


Everything else is just optional, how easy do you want to navigate and does your wife really appreciate taking a shit in a bucket? Varying levels of simplicity and how much garbage you want/need to maintain. Lake boating and crossing the deep blue have different levels of requirements as well.
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:10 PM   #68
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Just to clarify I said "most folks". Not TF members, but I bet we got some LAMLAMs here.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:01 PM   #69
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Everything on my boat can be turned on or off except the hull. That is the minimum regardless of what else.

I have and expect to continue to enjoy everything aboard when appropriate.

If the stars are out, the water calm, I want minimal assistance from my beloved vessel to enjoy what nature has to offer.

I have and expect will again have conditions that warrant my using all the power and modern conveniences available.

The KISS method is highly respected by me. Hearing others complain, not so much.

Methinks that a plank could be useful, in fact, quite needed if there was not the option to use some of the non-minimalist items aboard.

More dry time aboard is the goal for me.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:12 PM   #70
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I hope everyone realizes that a "minimalist" wouldn't have a connection to the Internet.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:35 PM   #71
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I hope everyone realizes that a "minimalist" wouldn't have a connection to the Internet.
Aboard boat I'm there expressly to enjoy marine life... I don't use internet, unless absolutely called for regarding business communications! I do occasionally use cell phone for conference calls. In 21st Century, I call that fairly minimal!

Minimalist as an adjective:

1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of minimalism.

2. being or offering no more than what is required or essential:
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:53 PM   #72
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I hope everyone realizes that a "minimalist" wouldn't have a connection to the Internet.
I don't have internet on the boat. I don't have a phone. I haven't owned a cell phone for the past 15 years other than for a new Galaxy I bought last year and dropped in the bilge water on the second day I had it.
But I am considering buying another (waterproof) cell phone. For me, I prefer not to have one, other than for backup emergency communication.
I realize I am in a minority with this view.
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:06 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
12yrs ago, I ran a 18' center console diesel skiff I put together from NC to Key West right around Christmas. Just in time for a cold front!!! Slept on the open deck in a sleeping bag. Woke up covered in frost. Daytime temps around 40F. No windscreen, I was bundled up like the Michelin Man!! Warmed up Beefaroni on the engine. Ran 20kts until around midnight each day. Took about 5days. Did not break out of the cold front til Stuart.

Learned to NOT warm up sardines on the engine. Cans can't take pressure.

That trip inspired some design details on my present boat: Lower station OUT OF THE WEATHER and GOOD HEAT!!

That's my minimalist story.

Ski,
That is a GREAT story. Full of adventure and determination.
Our family lived a few years outside of Belhaven NC- I graduated high school there in '77. Lots of play on the water in the area. Albemarle and Pamlico Sound. Sigh....
That was an awesome trip I bet😎


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Old 12-02-2014, 06:41 AM   #74
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For those having a hard time grasping minimalism....and what it's about.

What Is Minimalism? - The Minimalists
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Old 12-02-2014, 10:15 AM   #75
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Wow, this is a great read. Everyone has such varying degrees of the minimalistic needs. I'm curious what the OP is doing as I'm sure that would dictate what you would need. I would say at minimum a VHF, lights, and a PFD. One keeps you from being hit, one allows you to say I've been hit, and the last keeps you floating when hit happens...


Everything else is just optional, how easy do you want to navigate and does your wife really appreciate taking a shit in a bucket? Varying levels of simplicity and how much garbage you want/need to maintain. Lake boating and crossing the deep blue have different levels of requirements as well.
I would add charts and a compass, so you can avoid hitting something.
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:46 AM   #76
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This thread would be much more appropriate if the title was "Maximalistic Approach to Power Cruising".

Most TF members know squat about minimalistic and much about maximalistic. Countless threads/posts here are about how supreme and wonderful the posters boat and equipment is ... not about how wonderful it is that an old Danforth type anchor can be found for cheap and/or how well it works. The inexpensive and ordinary is shunned or ignored.

Haha ... of course the maximalists aren't on TF and have a crew to operate their boat.

But most here strive for, yearn for and go to great lengths to maximize .. not minimize. And thus are much more qualified to talk the prior and not the latter.
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:27 PM   #77
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This thread would be much more appropriate if the title was "Maximalistic Approach to Power Cruising".

Most TF members know squat about minimalistic and much about maximalistic. Countless threads/posts here are about how supreme and wonderful the posters boat and equipment is ... not about how wonderful it is that an old Danforth type anchor can be found for cheap and/or how well it works. The inexpensive and ordinary is shunned or ignored.

Haha ... of course the maximalists aren't on TF and have a crew to operate their boat.

But most here strive for, yearn for and go to great lengths to maximize .. not minimize. And thus are much more qualified to talk the prior and not the latter.
Eric, do you have a TV at home? A microwave? You have to remember a lot of the members either take extended cruises or liveaboard. These are our homes so we make them comfortable. You make it sound like this is a bad thing? I have earned the right to be comfortable in my old age> If I want to rough it I will stay at a Motel 6
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:44 PM   #78
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This thread would be much more appropriate if the title was "Maximalistic Approach to Power Cruising".
Hi, OP here. If it were "maximalistic" then I doubt I'd waste my time reading it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
... not about how wonderful it is that an old Danforth type anchor can be found for cheap and/or how well it works.
Hate to start another anchor argument, but I really hate danforths. Maybe it's because of the challenging bottom composition I have to contend with. I'm thinking of welding up a heavy fisherman anchor with a needle sharp point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
But most here strive for, yearn for and go to great lengths to maximize .. not minimize. And thus are much more qualified to talk the prior and not the latter.
I'm not an old-fart or anything, but I really don't like relying on electricity out on the water. Plus sonar and chart plotters don't really impress me too much. I don't mind a simple gps and paper charts and they lend to the "romanticism" of sailing the seas, shooting the sun, marking dead-reckoned fixes, etc.

However, making the wife crap in a bucket is definitely out of the question
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Old 12-02-2014, 02:22 PM   #79
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Here is my idea of a minimalistic approach to outfitting a trawler...

When I ordered my DD 492 I went with the minimalist approach.

Here’s a partial list of the minimalist equipment I ordered:

Bow & stern thrusters
MAX PROP Whisper 5-blade propeller
9kw Northern Lights generator
Three (3) marine A/C units
Two (2) 24 volt Victron 3000 watt inverter/charger
Flybridge with full engine and thruster controls
Stidd helm chair on flybridge
Sunbrella bimini top
Remote spotlight and hailer
Complete ketch rig with boomless main and mizzen with staysail
3 Harken fullers, 6 selftailing winches.
Two (2) high output alternators both with Balmar regulators
9000 watt Toroidal isolation transformer
Four (4) 195 watt monocrystalline solar panels
Silentwind wind generator
Spectra Catalina 300 Mk ll watermaker with Z-ION membrane system
1000Ah at 24 volts AGM house battery bank
Muir Windlass
Three (3) anchors with 400’ Acco 7/16” G4 all chain rode
Bauer Junior ll E1 220 scuba tank compressor
Paravane flopper stopper system
Custom SS reinforced dinghy davits
Dual cargo booms with MOB retrieval system
Teak decks
Solaire infrared BBQ
Splendide 2100XC combomatic w/d (vented)
Microwave
Two (2) Waeco CR110 flush mounted refrigerators
Custom built-in freezer box with keel-cooled compressor
Stereo with USB receptacle, speakers in saloon, pilothouse and flybridge
Granite countertops throughout
Stove (3 LPG burners and 1 electric) with oven rotisserie
Dickinson Newport bulkhead diesel heater
Two (2) 32” LED flat screen televisions
Nine (9) Hella marine oscillating fans
LCD dash mounted monitor with cameras aft & engine room
All LED interior lights
All LED Nav lights
Stidd helm chair in pilothouse
Full safety package – EPIRB, 6 man offshore life raft, 12 life jackets, flare package and 6 survival suits, etc. etc.
Echo Pilot Forward scanning sonar
Two (2) Raymarine displays
Two (2) autopilots each with separate pumps
ComNav Vector satellite compass
ComNav class 2 AIS
Maretron GPS200 & Raymarine RS125+ GPS
Raymarine DSM300+P319 depth sounder
Maretron masthead weather system
Recordable digital barometer
Two (2) VHF Icom IC-M604 for pilothouse and flybridge
Icom 802 SSB with AT140 tuner and SSB antenna
Pactor P4dragon DR-7800 modem
Ritchie compasses (2) in pilothouse and flybridge
Iridium Sat phone with external antenna and data link for email
Forespar Lightning Master static dissipator
And much much more but I don't want to bore you...


Oh, and I didn't order a trash compactor... That wouldn't have been over the top considering the minimalistic approach I took when equipping my new trawler.

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Old 12-02-2014, 02:33 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Duck 492 View Post
When I ordered my DD 492 I went with the minimalist approach.

Here’s a partial list of the minimalist equipment I ordered:

Bow & stern thrusters
MAX PROP Whisper 5-blade propeller
9kw Northern Lights generator
Three (3) marine A/C units
Two (2) 24 volt Victron 3000 watt inverter/charger
Flybridge with full engine and thruster controls
Stidd helm chair on flybridge
Sunbrella bimini top
Remote spotlight and hailer
Complete ketch rig with boomless main and mizzen with staysail
3 Harken fullers, 6 selftailing winches.
Two (2) high output alternators both with Balmar regulators
9000 watt Toroidal isolation transformer
Four (4) 195 watt monocrystalline solar panels
Silentwind wind generator
Spectra Catalina 300 Mk ll watermaker with Z-ION membrane system
1000Ah at 24 volts AGM house battery bank
Muir Windlass
Three (3) anchors with 400’ Acco 7/16” G4 all chain rode
Bauer Junior ll E1 220 scuba tank compressor
Paravane flopper stopper system
Custom SS reinforced dinghy davits
Dual cargo booms with MOB retrieval system
Teak decks
Solaire infrared BBQ
Splendide 2100XC combomatic w/d (vented)
Microwave
Two (2) Waeco CR110 flush mounted refrigerators
Custom built-in freezer box with keel-cooled compressor
Stereo with USB receptacle, speakers in saloon, pilothouse and flybridge
Granite countertops throughout
Stove (3 LPG burners and 1 electric) with oven rotisserie
Dickinson Newport bulkhead diesel heater
Two (2) 32” LED flat screen televisions
Nine (9) Hella marine oscillating fans
LCD dash mounted monitor with cameras aft & engine room
All LED interior lights
All LED Nav lights
Stidd helm chair in pilothouse
Full safety package – EPIRB, 6 man offshore life raft, 12 life jackets, flare package and 6 survival suits, etc. etc.
Echo Pilot Forward scanning sonar
Two (2) Raymarine displays
Two (2) autopilots each with separate pumps
ComNav Vector satellite compass
ComNav class 2 AIS
Maretron GPS200 & Raymarine RS125+ GPS
Raymarine DSM300+P319 depth sounder
Maretron masthead weather system
Recordable digital barometer
Two (2) VHF Icom IC-M604 for pilothouse and flybridge
Icom 802 SSB with AT140 tuner and SSB antenna
Pactor P4dragon DR-7800 modem
Ritchie compasses (2) in pilothouse and flybridge
Iridium Sat phone with external antenna and data link for email
Forespar Lightning Master static dissipator
And much much more but I don't want to bore you...


Oh, and I didn't order a trash compactor... That wouldn't have been over the top considering the minimalistic approach I took when equipping my new trawler.
Hey - Wait a Minute! No Dancing Pole in Salon Center... for Wife... or even the occasional Mermaid?

Please! Get With IT!! - Cheers, Art
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