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Old 05-11-2016, 03:38 PM   #21
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Thanks BandB for all the interesting industry insight.
I don't have spare money to invest. I do that through Ameriprise Fin. Very conservative portfolio keeping my head above water.

I would assume small boats like 14' aluminum skiffs and canoes would suffer from distribution expenses. Never seen a Chinese canoe or small skiff. Never thought about it before your coments either.
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Old 05-11-2016, 04:34 PM   #22
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Thanks BandB for all the interesting industry insight.
I don't have spare money to invest. I do that through Ameriprise Fin. Very conservative portfolio keeping my head above water.

I would assume small boats like 14' aluminum skiffs and canoes would suffer from distribution expenses. Never seen a Chinese canoe or small skiff. Never thought about it before your coments either.
Small boats just don't have the level of profits to justify a plant in China. While we have opposing views on US production, MYTraveler also has a good deal of insight.

I'm conservative too in investing and my even considering getting involved with boat manufacturing was sadness in seeing a long treasured line of boats dying. I came to my senses I guess though.

Every part of the boating world concentrates on their type boating. I never thought of anything to sleep on when I lived on the lake. Our 30' bowrider was a huge boat for there. There are other people who only think of the yacht world and anything under 150' is a toy boat to them or perhaps a tender. We have a friend who had never been on any recreational boat under 200' or so, before she went out with us. She had been on the tour boat circling NYC but that doesn't count.

This is a trawler group so naturally the thoughts run to trawler type boats, those used in the manner people here boat. As part of the boating world, it's a small part. In fact, I think it should be much larger. Too many boat builders have migrated away from the 30-60' size. Look back at the great Hatteras LRC's-Gone. Smallest now 60'. All the Grand Banks? Essentially gone as it was known. OA-smallest boat now 70'. Bayliner cruisers-gone. Many of the builders who built cruisers to boost the top of their lines, extend lines from 30' to 50' stopped. Tollycraft-gone. Not much new, not much bravery to enter the industry or innovate in it. The only innovative effort I think of off the top of my head is the Beneteau Swift Trawler. It said something was missing. In a way they were trying to be the new Bayliner. And speaking of US building, I believe we'll see some ST's built in the US.

I would love to see a builder addressing the 30'-70' semi-displacement market. I also would like to see a US trawler type builder. I guess the one effort into that was Northern Marine and we know where they went. The customer Bayliner and Mainship and Tollycraft served isn't being served today. The customer Grand Banks served isn't being served well today. Some say it's a lack of demand. I don't know. I don't think so, but I don't know. It's impossible to really know demand for something that isn't available. How do you measure dreams or those in a focus group who say they'd love a specific boat. You have no idea how that would translate. If they say they hate it, you do know enough not to proceed.
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Old 05-11-2016, 04:40 PM   #23
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I would assume small boats like 14' aluminum skiffs and canoes would suffer from distribution expenses. Never seen a Chinese canoe or small skiff. Never thought about it before your coments either.
Yes, aluminum boats like that have been declared dead many times but small aluminum boats is a thriving market. Hard to convince people to go aluminum on a runabout though. In the worst part of the economic crisis, aluminum was Brunswick's one bright spot. In fact, in terms of volume for a brand, not for a builder, Tracker is now number one. More Tracker's sold than Bayliner or Sea Ray.

Something else you've never seen in the US. A Chinese or any foreign built center console. Haven't seen a Sportfishing boat yet either. Chinese build has been concentrated on commercial, trawler type, and yachts up to 120' or so.
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Old 05-11-2016, 04:51 PM   #24
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A Chinese or any foreign built center console. Haven't seen a Sportfishing boat yet either.
Well there was bound to be at least one

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Old 05-11-2016, 05:59 PM   #25
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I'm genuinely curious. Why are so many boat builders and farm equipment manufacturers located in China? Or is the parity with US builders due to relatively recent cost increases over there (plus freight)?
Labor cost and regulatory compliance.

One place, you pay $2 per hour, no retirement plan, no lawyers suing you for not having bathrooms for 12 genders, no EPA, no FICA, no union telling you to have nap pods. Another place, $30 per hour, big pension, government breathing down your neck at every decision, cookies and milk at every break, mandatory union dues, etc etc.

Not that complicated. It's called P&L.
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:32 PM   #26
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Labor cost and regulatory compliance.

One place, you pay $2 per hour, no retirement plan, no lawyers suing you for not having bathrooms for 12 genders, no EPA, no FICA, no union telling you to have nap pods. Another place, $30 per hour, big pension, government breathing down your neck at every decision, cookies and milk at every break, mandatory union dues, etc etc.

Not that complicated. It's called P&L.
Well, as long as we're talking extremes, that would be the same China where millions still live in squalor, sweat shops abound and people in many industrial centers wear dust masks to catch the particulates floating in the air they breathe. Give me the US socioeconomic model, warts and all.
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Old 05-11-2016, 07:04 PM   #27
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Labor cost and regulatory compliance.

One place, you pay $2 per hour, no retirement plan, no lawyers suing you for not having bathrooms for 12 genders, no EPA, no FICA, no union telling you to have nap pods. Another place, $30 per hour, big pension, government breathing down your neck at every decision, cookies and milk at every break, mandatory union dues, etc etc.

Not that complicated. It's called P&L.
The cost of raw materials and getting them in has to figure in and the cost of shipping to your customer. Duty. Then the expense those who wait to commission add to the cost. It's not all about labor and compliance. Don't forget the cost of shutting down for the Chinese New Year. There are many factors.

My career was in an industry where 65% of your cost was labor. That's where you get killed. I suffered through all the transfer of jobs offshore and hate that to this day. Just as a comparison though, sewing could not and cannot compete. However, knitting and dying of fabric, there's no cost savings in China. Very capital intensive business and low labor factor.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:16 AM   #28
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Well, as long as we're talking extremes, that would be the same China where millions still live in squalor, sweat shops abound and people in many industrial centers wear dust masks to catch the particulates floating in the air they breathe. Give me the US socioeconomic model, warts and all.
Yeah, how do you want to live, how do you want your loved ones, neighbors to live? What do want to see when you wake up? For those that wish for the description of life you gave, immigration is a possibility.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:44 AM   #29
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Yeah, how do you want to live, how do you want your loved ones, neighbors to live? What do want to see when you wake up? For those that wish for the description of life you gave, immigration is a possibility.
For a moment I thought you were describing some places in the US. A trip or two to China and SE Asia is required to better understand the people, living conditions and economy. As is a trip to parts of Chicago on any evening. Ignorance is bliss.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:58 AM   #30
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For a moment I thought you were describing some places in the US. A trip or two to China and SE Asia is required to better understand the people, living conditions and economy. As is a trip to parts of Chicago on any evening. Ignorance is bliss.
I have spent more than my share of time in SE Asia. Seen the squalor of the slums of Hong Kong next to mind boggling riches. I support an defend the USA and will continue to do so.
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