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Old 01-28-2016, 08:11 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
OFB: no offense taken, I am not the one to cast the first stone on the "Intent vs possible interpretations" issue. There are quite a few newbies and impressionable folks here, and frankly a lot of corner cutters given a choice. Or put another way, those who haven't or don't do drills or practice safety and accident situations. For instance, on this thread and a few others, we found several who did not have a way to get themselves on board if they fell off to begin with. And so on...
Yup . I know this thread , beside the pee, has allot of gold within. Good thoughts for that what the **** if deal. Trawler forum rocks ! Sure 99.99 percent of us ever experience such , but having some knowledge in the memory banks from where ever just might help. No ? Yes ?

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Since I am at it, falling into choppy salt water has another unexpected result that I believe folk might want to consider. depending on how long you are in there. You will have a tough time seeing , your vision will be effected by the salt water in a fairly short amount of time. In the dark that also adds another level of difficulty to survive with.

End

Having or turning on a deck light could really give you an advantage IMO.
Actually I now hold some value of under swim platform or underwater lighting. Light up where the re-board device is before heading out on deck ? yes no ?

Random thoughts Kinda.
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Old 01-28-2016, 11:08 PM   #142
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Interesting must be a Canada thing, I have never had a problem with salt water and seeing. Many an hour in my life in the saltwater, all my growing up in fact, nary a problem.

If I recall from the last time my tears are salty as well.

In short I do not recall ever having a difficult time seeing while in salt water, even can open my eyes under water and I can still see, not clear of course but fine when back above.
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Old 01-29-2016, 12:32 AM   #143
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Never had a problem with eyes and salt water, the chlorine in public pools bothers me more than Atlantic water.

Underwater lights, especially the under the swim platform lights ... ... I have them and leave them on; on anchor, at the dock, whenever the intentional, or not intentional, boarding might happen at night.
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Old 01-29-2016, 06:26 AM   #144
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How about a floating cargo net, has a float line on the edge trailed behind the swim platform. Maybe even a plastic sealed PVC pipe extension tied on the edges to keep it from going under the boat. And pool noodles on the outer back edge to keep it floating. Or pool noodles all the way round the periphery of the net instead of pipes.
Should be easy if swimming to roll yourself onto it, then clamber up on the swim platform.
Such a net should have a small enough weave so you do not get caught in it but big enough weave to grab with hands and feet.

I think even a small net 3 by 5 feet would work

Another idea is a rectangle of glued 3 to 5 inch PVC pipe, (straights and elbows) and a small cargo net lashed to the pipe. Secure long end of rectangle to swim platform, other end floats on the water. easy to crawl into and pipe floatation buoys you up as you crawl back on boat.
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:19 AM   #145
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In regards to poor vision in salt water:

Don't forget your glasses probably fell off when you fell overboard...
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Old 01-30-2016, 09:26 AM   #146
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In regards to poor vision in salt water:

Don't forget your glasses probably fell off when you fell overboard...
If you are lucky enough to see well enough to be able to wear corrective lenses, such as glasses/contacts, and function throughout daily life activities (such as I am with thick glasses on, having been born with long duration blood clot closed eyes resulting in near loss of vision for first couple years) then you will immediately understand how to deal with survival emergency if no glasses suddenly become available... ya could call it a force-practiced "Earth Bound 6th Sense"... for persons with poor vision!

That said: I believe that in boating (due to the untold number of emergency variables that might/could suddenly unfold) it is only prudent and wise for each regularly participating boater to pre-address as many issues of emergency as possible that might affect their chance of survival and/or their capability of helping others to survive. IMO for captains this is a must! I'll list a few emergency assistance materials/parts/items that I feel sit at top of my list (not necessarily in order of importance). Please add more that might be at top of your emergency preparedness boating list.

- At least two life rings readily available with minimum of easily seen 50' 3/8" yellow floating line attached and easily unfurled for throwing the ring while keeping the line's end loop firm in your hand for pulling MOB back to boat.
- Ladder or other means for getting MOB aboard once pulled back to boat.
- Life preservers aboard and ready to darn in seconds with ample sizes available for different age/size person's aboard. I keep many of these inside the boat's confines and equal amount under a large seat on flying bridge.
- Many fire extinguishers in many places. We have seven aboard our 34' tri cabin. each instantly accessible if need be.
- Full array of emergency medical supplies in transportable, large emergency box.
- Ample length lines and number of anchors so that if one or two either become lost of jeopardized here is another to also utilize
- Never any less than 10% minimum engine fuel available... preferably not less than 20%.
- Working marine radio so that boat to boat and/or boat to shore communications are available.
- Many high beam hand held flashlights immediately available in many places on board for emergencies that might occur in the dark.

Also, for much of the above suggestions I believe it is imperative at minimum for the Captain to have tried his or her efficiency in actually employing reaction to emergency situations where any of these "tools" might be required for use. And, it's always good to have the first mate on boat to have gone through these "try-outs" with the Captain. Run throughs in test patterns should be accomplished every year or two.

I look at it this way... "Better Safe than Sorry!!

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Old 01-30-2016, 01:13 PM   #147
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While walking the docks at Trawlerfest yesterday, I saw a boat with toe steps molded into the side with an opening in the safety railing. I thought it was a good idea. They were above the waterline 3-4 toe holes I wish I had taken a photo now...
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Old 01-30-2016, 02:19 PM   #148
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In the sailing world, we used to do MOB drills. Under sail (under controlled conditions) we have a person jump into water - as if they fell in. Sailboat and crew goes through a pre-planned maneuver / procedure and attempts to rescue the MOB. The drill is executed several times as we rate ourselves on success and refine the protocol. In the rare event it happens for real, the crew knows the MOB plan and relies on their training. The keys were to have one person always keeping an eye on MOB at all times. (person can get lost in waves) Then, throw out Life Ring flotation ring or any bright colored flotation device immediately, Hit MOB button on Chartplotter, Turn boat around (in sailboat there are several maneuvers depending on boat and wind direction, quick turn, figure eight, etc) and head slowly back to MOB, stop boat, stabilize boat speed / direction, prepare for bringing MOB on board. Devise a method (before hand) of recovering MOB and lifting person onboard safety. Many different methods depending upon boat, equipment and crew. One thing we learned was (as many others have) it is very difficult if not impossible to lift a person on board - that is the stark reality - if they do not have the capability of getting to and climbing up stern ladder. Putting another person in the water can be effective depending on conditions but is always a hard judgement call. If MOB has capability they can swim up to stern ladder and climb back in. But if MOB does not have capability, you can swim to MOB and place a clip on to their PFD harness and lift them out of water using a 4:1 or 6:1 block and tackle that is attached to end of boom that is hanging above the port or starboard side of water. Another strategy is to use a dingy as an intermediate platform to clip MOB to side of dingy with head out of water until you can work out a way of re-boarding. This is all from memory, I have the procedures written down and are onboard. They key is to practice the routine with your crew once a year such that a real MOB does not turn into a chinese circus.

Lessons we learned were that getting back to MOB in short time is the easy part. Getting MOB back onto the boat (if they have no capability to climb) is near impossible but it can be done and we have. So this led us into thinking more about Prevention. We then understood that the real key is to not have anyone fall off boat in first place! So use of PFD harness on jacklines and other methods of clipping yourself and crew members securely onto deck in bad weather is key. Person can not fall over when clipped securely in cockpit or on deck if harness and jack line is setup properly. Also in calm conditions, rules such as not peeing off the side (especially at night) are key. basically anything you can think of to minimize a person going over board unintentionally. As getting a person back on board (depending on their condition) can be very difficult and some times impossible. So doing everything possible in terms of Prevention is really the key.

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Old 01-30-2016, 02:35 PM   #149
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Avoiding falling overboard while enjoying the phosphoresence

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While we discuss emergency exiting elsewhere how about emergency re-boarding.

Could you?

Here is the scene, middle of the night you get up to check the anchor (*pee over the side) and for what ever reason you fall overboard. You have the boat in the normal overnight condition that you always have it when overnight anchoring.


Can you get back in by yourself with no help?

How about....add any or all your choice.

1. Water temp is 59^F

2. Current is 2.1 kts

3. Waves or chop

4. You broke your wrist in the fall.



No help is available, no life jacket or harness attached.

Can you get back in the boat? How? Why not?

Discuss

* as Richard says not a good idea, but I bet we all have done it a time or two. I find it to be among the luxuries to do so on a nice night with a full moon, but I digress, sigh.

I will have a very hard time on my boat.
When I had custom swim step staples fabricated I had the height designed so they are at the bottom of my fly. That way I can safely pee overboard at night and enjoy the reaction of the thousands of tiny phosphorescent critters who signify their pleasure by lighting up.
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Old 01-30-2016, 05:39 PM   #150
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But if MOB does not have capability, you can swim to MOB and place a clip on to their PFD harness and lift them out of water using a 4:1 or 6:1 block and tackle that is attached to end of boom that is hanging above the port or starboard side of water.
Obviously not the first choice of ways to recover but we have practiced using the tender crane for lifting a person.
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Old 01-30-2016, 05:56 PM   #151
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Obviously not the first choice of ways to recover but we have practiced using the tender crane for lifting a person.
Tender crane would be an excellent choice!
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Old 01-30-2016, 06:11 PM   #152
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Tender crane would be an excellent choice!
Really difficult for one person to do, especially when crane is up on the boat deck. Inspired me to extend the length of the cord on the controller. Even then, just getting the hook onto the Life Sling in any kind of a seaway is a challenge.
With no practice at all (seemingly the "TF Way") odds of success are virtually nil.
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Old 01-30-2016, 06:35 PM   #153
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Really difficult for one person to do, especially when crane is up on the boat deck. Inspired me to extend the length of the cord on the controller. Even then, just getting the hook onto the Life Sling in any kind of a seaway is a challenge.
With no practice at all (seemingly the "TF Way") odds of success are virtually nil.
That's why we practiced. Definitely not easy and hope we never need to do it that way. I've found part of preparation is developing knowledge and skills you hope to never need to use.
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Old 01-30-2016, 06:53 PM   #154
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Very impressive. I've forgotten my swim ladder before and my wife admits she'd never be able to climb back into the boat without it. I'm in good shape and it is not an easy task without the ladder (I'd have to use a line and rub rails as steps).

I believe it is important for boaters to be in reasonably good physical condition to handle emergencies. I've seen some captains who likely couldn't swim 10 yards in the best of conditions!
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Old 01-31-2016, 07:52 AM   #155
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A very important topic. When inspecting a vessel I often pose this question to an owner or buyer, regarding re-boarding. "You've fallen overboard at night, in cold water, fully clothed. Can you get back aboard easily, and without help?" Boat owners have died having fallen overboard in a marina. It's interesting how few boat owners, and more remarkably how few boat builders, consider this.

At the risk of sounding repetitive...there is an ABYC Standard that addresses reboarding. It says...

Means of unassisted reboarding shall be provided on all boats. The reboarding means shall be accessible to, and deployable by the person in the water.

41.10.1.1 The means of unassisted reboarding shall be described in the owner’s manual.

41.10.2
Reboarding ladders mounted on the stern of boats shall be installed as far as practicable from the propeller(s).

41.10.3
The top surface of the lowest step of a reboarding ladder, if installed to meet the requirement of H-41.10.1 shall be at least 22 inches (559 mm) below the waterline with the boat in the static floating position.


In my experience, even compliant ladders are not long or deep enough, 22 inches simply isn't generous enough for a fully clothed person to pull him or herself out of the water unless they are very physically fit.
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:29 AM   #156
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41.10.2
Reboarding ladders mounted on the stern of boats shall be installed as far as practicable from the propeller(s).

41.10.3
The top surface of the lowest step of a reboarding ladder, if installed to meet the requirement of H-41.10.1 shall be at least 22 inches (559 mm) below the waterline with the boat in the static floating position.

In my experience, even compliant ladders are not long or deep enough, 22 inches simply isn't generous enough for a fully clothed person to pull him or herself out of the water unless they are very physically fit.
Those and other items are exactly why I built a while "in-the-water" deployable 6' tall SS ladder with broad steps and knotted pull-line for hand assistance to help get back aboard boat. Ladder is shown in its secured position at dock as we leave for weeks away from boat. Otherwise, I have ladder either in the water with knotted pull-line dangling off transom, or, ladder in upright position with small breakable bungee affixed to the eye in center of "h" in the word "The" on transom with knotted pull-line dangling.

Time and cost it took to build the ladder (out of two used SS ladders and steps and nuts/bolts and SS sleeves I purchased) as well as to install this swim/safety-system ladder means nothing in regard to maybe saving a life and consistently having easy to re board swimming joy... which we do multiple times every day of the summer we use our Tolly!

Estimate parts cost: Five hundred dollars. Estimated work hours: Full day.

Estimated swim-joy and potential lifesaving pay-back - PRICELESS!!

Happy Safety-Ladder Daze! - Art
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Old 01-31-2016, 11:06 AM   #157
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In my experience, even compliant ladders are not long or deep enough, 22 inches simply isn't generous enough for a fully clothed person to pull him or herself out of the water unless they are very physically fit.
The biggest problem with most recently built boats is those who adhere to the 22 inches or no more and those that have reboarding ladders that in practice are not as accessible as in theory. What one is capable of doing when practicing in warm water is far different than overboard in cold water.

Plus many boats complicate the issue with tenders on the swim platform blocking the path to reboarding.

Still I think the key thing in most situations of an individual overboard in a boat not underway is the length of ladder. Change the 22" or 24" to 48" and it's easy to use.

There are also considerable drownings from the docks during winter. This is where I'd warn everyone here who goes to the docks to work or relax on their boat during the winter when no one with them. Docks may be slippery. You may be cold and have poorer balance. Or my just be lost in the moment. I've actually witnessed a man returning to his boat, walk straight down a ramp, not turn at the bottom and walk straight into the lake. Fortunately he was only in 4' of water when he landed and we were able to help him out. So, if you find yourself in the winter alone on or around the docks, I'd encourage wearing a flotation device. I'd also encourage checking the docks in advance to know how you would get out if you fell in.
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Old 01-31-2016, 05:09 PM   #158
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In regards to poor vision in salt water:

Don't forget your glasses probably fell off when you fell overboard...
It gets tougher, now the man overboard is partially blind. Let`s add he struck his head falling and is at best semi conscious.
At least he won`t notice the pain from his #wrist. A prudent mariner would attach a lifeline before taking a midnight pee.
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:01 PM   #159
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........
Plus many boats complicate the issue with tenders on the swim platform blocking the path to reboarding.
This is a very pertinent point, and at the risk of boring folk, I'll repost how my boat is set up, because I have always felt where function is critical, especially when safety and ease of use is paramount, aesthetics needs to take a bit of a back seat. Note the pull out telescopic ladder attached under the step, easily reached from the water, and the bottom step is about 2 feet immersed when fully extended, slightly angled outwards, and it's a breeze to climb out.

I have noticed purely because of aesthetics, most boats that carry their tenders on the edge on the duckboard, (swim step to folk in N. A.), have them so they are centred in such a way that for most, deploying the ladder is not possible, even from the boat, and in perfect conditions, because of the point BandB just mentioned.

Here is how I solved that issue, and as my boat is only 3.5m (roughly 11') wide at the transom, I assume most boats could do likewise by just moving their davit system a tad east or west. There is no law graven in a tablet of stone anywhere that tenders must be centred on the stern. Ok, may not look as pretty, but where a life could be involved...aside from the sheer convenience of being able to bathe, and then board easily without deploying the tender...
See avatar pic as well. Oh, and no s**t about the colour of the dinghy please, she's 30 odd years old, and owes me nuss-ssing..!
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:26 PM   #160
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At 6'1" tall a step 4' above my feet is difficult for me to negotiate while fully immersed, especially under duress. The ladder on my Whaler is about that shallow, and so I know this from direct experience.
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