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Old 05-20-2014, 12:44 AM   #81
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If it looks good, it's usually good, and if it doesn't look right, it's probably not right. That design didn't look right. Most all of us saw this right off the bat. "SWEET" it wasn't. If this was a auto forum, there would had been shouts of "kill it with fire".
Northern has built some real sweet designs. This wasn't one of them. Too bad.
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Old 05-20-2014, 12:45 AM   #82
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hopefully, the pdf of the stability study is attached.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Letter_Report_weight and stability_study_NM8501.pdf (280.5 KB, 101 views)
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Old 05-20-2014, 12:47 AM   #83
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Sunchaser, has that company had an ownership change recently? Seems I heard something of the sort.
Yes and yes. Lots of changes in the past couple of years and more quite likely and that was before this.

Which makes the point that NM today may not be NM of the past. This is true of any builder or any manufacturer of any product. Sometimes it's ownership or management change, sometimes finances.

Now sometimes that change is positive. And sometimes it's too early to tell.
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Old 05-20-2014, 12:48 AM   #84
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Exactly

What the boat does when its not fully in the water has no resemblance to what it will do in the water.

I think all the speculation as to its seaworthiness is just armchair engineering.

Lets be real. Almost anyone of us here on TF would love to have a 90' expedition yacht of that caliber.

Its just sad they couldn't get it fully in the water. It would have been a fine vessel.
I am with you on this one, the boat was tipped back 15 degrees and balanced on two stern corners, if one gave way she was bound to go over. I have PERSONALLY been in a NM80 in side gusting winds of 30+ and the boat had no noticeable heel. I will wait until the experts weigh in to pass judgement.

HOLLYWOOD
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Old 05-20-2014, 12:54 AM   #85
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It normally carried 15,000 gals fuel and only had 150 gals was on board for the launch. How much does fuel weigh, That's a lot of ballast weight to not have on board.
15,000 gallons of fuel weighs about 105,000 pounds... Of course I wouldn't want my boat to flip over only because it needs to be fueled.
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:01 AM   #86
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I have PERSONALLY been in a NM80 in side gusting winds of 30+ and the boat had no noticeable heel.
HOLLYWOOD
Actually before this disastrous day, the question and concerns were already the ones that your comment actually points out. Comparing this to the NM 80 just doesn't work. According to the engineers it's lighter for it's size than any other NM. It's taller than the NM 80 by a huge amount. Lighter and much taller isn't normally the best combination in the world. NM 80 is very much a staid stable kind of boat. This one was more built by taking chances. And there have also been a lot of changes in NM. Perhaps this would have been a good boat. However, I would choose the NM 80 over this one based on what we've seen any day. Whether or not today's events were related to the boat, there have been many questioning the design and stability of the boat. And even if the problem is equipment related rather than boat related, it's still one that reflects poorly on the builder and one claimed to have been warned against. You can build a lot of good boats and then build one you never should have considered or at the very least you should have controlled the uniqueness a bit better.
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:15 AM   #87
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My diver that worked on my boat today spoke of limited ballast on the boat. A friend on the dock was working with the guy who did electronics on this boat. They had 4 guys on board when it flipped. They reported a load bang just prior to the flip. Possibly one of those stabilizers breaking off?

It is so true about the jobs. One guy is out 80K and said it will likely BK him.

Sucks when your a little guy and put your eggs into a bad basket.

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Old 05-20-2014, 01:45 AM   #88
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It is so true about the jobs. One guy is out 80K and said it will likely BK him.
Sucks when your a little guy and put your eggs into a bad basket.
Jeff
Northern Marines Insurance Company should make whole all the contractors. If the damage isn't too severe, they may even rehab the boat. We'll see?
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:46 AM   #89
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In deed a sad day for NM, no matter the reason for the flip. Some mentioned the history of the company itself. It is a bit interesting and fairly typical for the early to mid-2000. Bud Lemiex started NM in about 1995. He was a long time builder and exec at Delta Marina. He built a reputation building solid capable boats and was at the forefront of boat building technology. In the mid- 2000's he needed capital and hooked p with a Capital outfit, Ashton Capital. They bought a controlling interest in about mid-2006. As usual in these things, old management and new management did not always agree. Lemieux was forced out and Ashtom brought in their own management, more focued on sales and profit than in boatbuilding. Well, 2008 the recession it and Ashton wanted out. They had lost a ton of money. From 2008 until late 2011, I think NM only built 2, maybe 3 boats.. Ashton sold NM to Andy McDonald in late 2010. Andy was a protégé of Bud Lemieux. He got the company for next to nothing, relatively speaking. Andy was about 31-32 then, he is about 35 now. NM has not been well capitalized. The use of inadequate transport equipment could well be a sign if the inadequate capital. This boat was to be the "Big Splash" for NM in its current iteration. NM could not afford to build this boat on its own, the owner has borne just about the entire cost of the build up front. This disaster is going to be a financial disaster for NM. It will be interesting to see if they are able to survive.

A sad story that happened to too many boat builders in the late 90-s early 2000's. Let the equity capital guys into your company so you can get some cash out, and soon you are out and your company is gone and another well respected boat name bites the dust.
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:49 AM   #90
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Contractor wise, 80k is a lot of capital to have tied up for what will most likely be a lengthy investigation. Not many small businesses can absorb a hit like that. I couldn't.
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:06 AM   #91
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Contractor wise, 80k is a lot of capital to have tied up for what will most likely be a lengthy investigation. Not many small businesses can absorb a hit like that. I couldn't.

Neither could I. There'll be as many losers as there are players in this game, and ultimately the only winners will be the lawyers representing them.
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:25 AM   #92
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Another news report, where there is mention of the starboard stabilizer hitting rocks and an attempt to "thrust" into deeper water. I could visualize how the thrusting action might exacerbate an already bad list. Also, the vessel rolled onto its port side, so the starboard stabilizer hitting a rock is an interesting observation.

Multimillion-dollar yacht sinks near Anacortes; 6 rescued | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:50 AM   #93
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Ballast? Mine has none although the steel is thicker along the keel and lower hull compared to topside.



How does one test a boat's stability unless it's in the water?

The heart-pounding moments are when one's boat isn't in the water.

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Old 05-20-2014, 02:55 AM   #94
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Here is another recent Northern Marine vessel launch. It is a smaller boat but gives some idea of the procedure and equipment that they use, and the environment that they are launching in.

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Old 05-20-2014, 07:25 AM   #95
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Watching the launch of Optimus, it's clear they launch stern first, and it's also clear that the 85 has rotated 180 deg to it's position in the bottom. I.e. it is stern to the ramp rather than bow to the ramp as it was initially launched. This suggest to me that it had fully floated free of the dollies before rolling.

Although I completely agree with the potential for the tricycle dolly system to induce a roll as a boat is launched, it would appear this one survived at least that part of it's journey.

Sooooo, to keep the arm chair warm, I'd like to elaborate on a theory....

Most big disasters are a combination of failures, not a single failure. I would postulate that:

1) As BandB suggests, there was a generous amount of hubris is this build, resulting in a design that relied on ballasting more than previous builds.

2) A boat that pushed the limits of the transport system, or perhaps completely overloaded it.

3) A boat that was not ballasted, or lightly ballasted, to keep weight down because they knew they were pushing the capacity of the transport system.

Put those three things together, and it's a big Oh Sh&#t.
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Old 05-20-2014, 07:39 AM   #96
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It sounds like a trailer problem, hydraulic malfunction? It seems to have still been on the trailer when she heeled over. At that point she would have little reserve stability (none!) as the forward part of the hull was out of water.

But those ports are scary close to the waterline.....yowser!
Here's a good assessment from early on (post #17)....and a better trained eye than many in my estimation too.

A boat partially on/off a hard spot is not going to follow ANY "simple eyeball" stability evaluations.

The fact that she is spun around doesn't mean a thing about the rollover...many boats once full of water have more air/floatation in the bow and pirouette around the stern easily with a little wind, current or just inflow of water.
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:41 PM   #97
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Watching the launch of Optimus, it's clear they launch stern first, and it's also clear that the 85 has rotated 180 deg to it's position in the bottom. I.e. it is stern to the ramp rather than bow to the ramp as it was initially launched. This suggest to me that it had fully floated free of the dollies before rolling.

Although I completely agree with the potential for the tricycle dolly system to induce a roll as a boat is launched, it would appear this one survived at least that part of it's journey.

Sooooo, to keep the arm chair warm, I'd like to elaborate on a theory....

Most big disasters are a combination of failures, not a single failure. I would postulate that:

1) As BandB suggests, there was a generous amount of hubris is this build, resulting in a design that relied on ballasting more than previous builds.

2) A boat that pushed the limits of the transport system, or perhaps completely overloaded it.

3) A boat that was not ballasted, or lightly ballasted, to keep weight down because they knew they were pushing the capacity of the transport system.

Put those three things together, and it's a big Oh Sh&#t.
Toss one more update too in the situation. Mention that when it started to roll the crew went down to adjust the ballast. That's why one caught in the bilge. Adjust the ballast? What? While it's rolling over. So what ballast they'd added shifted? Wasn't as needed? What?
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:45 PM   #98
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Lets be real. Almost anyone of us here on TF would love to have a 90' expedition yacht of that caliber.
Sorry, but I'd much rather have an upright 40' expedition yacht of a more "traditional caliber" and $9.4M left over to travel the world in it!! For some reason the idea of having a boat that needs a crew gives me the heebee geebees - regardless of income level. I guess the idea of a boat is attractive in its ability to get you away from people.... and TV cameras and lawyers!! ....said from the midwest in a building filled with lawyers!

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Most big disasters are a combination of failures, not a single failure.
Couldn't agree more. I'm sure there were many failed links in the chain that contributed to this mishap.

Too bad for all the employees and subcontractors involved. I'm sure it's a stressful time.
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:46 PM   #99
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Here is another recent Northern Marine vessel launch. It is a smaller boat but gives some idea of the procedure and equipment that they use, and the environment that they are launching in.
And it ends with "TO BE CONTINUED". Oh yes, it has definitely been continued. In rather spectacular fashion.
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:54 PM   #100
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A friend just sent me a video, I'm unable to re-post it to TF for some reason. Anyway they have her afloat now and are de-watering as we speak.

I'm on my way over there and will have to stop by and see what's happening!!
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