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Old 05-22-2014, 10:06 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
Maybe its all about the wrong anchor and it being placed too high. Yes strange thingy on bow or are we looking at roof line of boat behind and an unpainted area around thrust-er??
Yeah, it's dangerous to oversize a Rocna. The rotating torque can be quite strong.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:21 PM   #182
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A truly tragic event for everyone involved and I look forward to reading the U.S.C.G report, findings and conclusions. I know its fun to speculate on just what went wrong but i think its to early and the information is still to limited to draw any kind of conclusions.


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Old 05-22-2014, 10:22 PM   #183
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I can see where this thread is heading and I must interject that there hasn't been a single case of a KK Manatee capsizing at launch!
Too funny, Larry. I guess a Manatee floats on the same principles that allow a helicopter to fly. As a helicopter is so ugly that the earth repels it, so does the sea repel the Manatee!

Sorry buddy....you fed me the line. I just couldn't resist.

I owe every Manatee owner on this forum a beer when I meet them. Just present a copy o this post to redeem your cold beverage.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:40 PM   #184
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Too funny, Larry. I guess a Manatee floats on the same principles that allow a helicopter to fly. As a helicopter is so ugly that the earth repels it, so does the sea repel the Manatee!

Sorry buddy....you fed me the line. I just couldn't resist.

I owe every Manatee owner on this forum a beer when I meet them. Just present a copy o this post to redeem your cold beverage.
I suppose I am in the beer owing status as well as I once quipped "In my opinion, the Krogen Manatee is the most appropriately named recreational vessel ever built."

That said if the owner of Blood Baron is who I think it is, then it too was appropriately named.
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Old 05-23-2014, 04:28 AM   #185
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I just wanted to subscribe and get the facts eventually....

I like the idea of a long skinny boat. But I wouldn't add a palace for a hired Captain at the top. I'll self drive and live lower down. My dream boat has one of those 3 ton Gardner 18 litre engines that idle at 300rpm and a huge AGM house bank as low as possible. If I need ballast it has to be the type that earns its keep.
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Old 05-23-2014, 05:50 PM   #186
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I am kind of new to power boats having come from the blowboat world. I had always assumed that if my boat (sail boat and current Trawler style Nova) was laid over on it side it would stand back up. Is this not true? Would my Nova 36 lay over and stay there? Of course this is assuming that it does not fill with water or is being held down by breaking waves.
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Old 05-23-2014, 06:16 PM   #187
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I am kind of new to power boats having come from the blowboat world. I had always assumed that if my boat (sail boat and current Trawler style Nova) was laid over on it side it would stand back up. Is this not true? Would my Nova 36 lay over and stay there? Of course this is assuming that it does not fill with water or is being held down by breaking waves.
Laid over on it's side is a bit difficult to define. Most boats are self righting to a degree. But when they cross that line in a couple of different ways, then that is compromised. If they take on water that can either help or hinder. The real issue becomes if they cross that 90 degree line. As they approach that point much depends on the weight, the center of gravity, the amount of ballast. Ballast isn't just that put in as such, but equipment, engines, fuel, water. With any boat, once it crosses a tilt line it's going to go the rest of the way over. Now where that line is drawn is a matter of the stability of the boat. Without an accident of some sort occurring or some extremely bad conditions you'll never reach that point on most boats.

However, take an incomplete boat. Take a sailboat with full sails but then take away the keel. Take a power boat and remove all equipment in the lower level while adding to the top side. Take an expedition boat designed for a lot of ballast and remove it. Now you have not just the issue of stability as the finished boat would be, but a much worse situation. There are many boats that given an empty hull and just the superstructure would not be stable. But then periodically one comes across that even with the engines, equipment and designed ballast never reaches a satisfactory level of stability.

So for practical purposes your boat has virtually no risk of being tilted over. Built another thirty foot structure on top however and remove all equipment, all keel, all running gear, all engines, fuel and water, and it would be much less stable.

I've seen larger boats too very dependent on fuel and water. I recall one that had to design the side fuel tanks to flow equally into a day tank in the middle to be stable. It was to me unsatisfactory to have that slim tolerance. A well designed boat is going to remain stable regardless of such factors.

Now, go to the extreme of stability. Elling just ran demonstrations on their boat as it's self righting.

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Old 05-23-2014, 07:27 PM   #188
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I am kind of new to power boats having come from the blowboat world. I had always assumed that if my boat (sail boat and current Trawler style Nova) was laid over on it side it would stand back up. Is this not true? Would my Nova 36 lay over and stay there? Of course this is assuming that it does not fill with water or is being held down by breaking waves.
All boats are not created equal nor are they un- tampered with after initial launch. Boats that get certification for open ocean use usually have very good stability and self righting test scores. Many other boats vary considerably in these abilities and I believe many are never tested. Most sail boats excel in righting ability relative to power boats rather obvious with keels and ballast, but even then there is often a point of no return. the great dangers for boats with marginal stability occurs with overloading-broaching in inlets-broaching in rapids. Boats broach and people die every year from these causes. No mater what your boat stability it is wise to avoid overloading and potential broaching. If you really want to know how stable your boat is there are standard tests which can be preformed at the dock obviously most don't bother with this. The builder may have some hard # information but I would not bet on it.
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:59 PM   #189
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With a boat in this range, designed for it's intended use of circumnavigation, I would have expected getting it classed would have been a requirement, whether ABS, Lloyd's or Veritas. They would require extensive stability testing including incline. Unfortunately that doesn't solve the problem. I'll give the reason.

Let's say, sale includes a guarantee of Veritas unlimited navigation. Boat is finished. By this time the buyer has paid 90-95% of price so in excess of the cost to build. Boat fails. Buyer says fix. Builder says no, you have to take it as is. Buyer says I refuse, give me my money back. Builder says no. Buyer says I'll sue you. Builder says go ahead. Buyer pays balance, takes boat, gets surveyed, sues for all deficiencies. Buyer wins. Builder declares bankruptcy.

Better pick your architect, builder, manager, surveyor, and lawyer drawing up the contract very carefully. Of you'll find yourself having paid a lot of money and still no boat.
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Old 05-23-2014, 08:49 PM   #190
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I am kind of new to power boats having come from the blowboat world. I had always assumed that if my boat (sail boat and current Trawler style Nova) was laid over on it side it would stand back up. Is this not true? Would my Nova 36 lay over and stay there? Of course this is assuming that it does not fill with water or is being held down by breaking waves.
If your boat was laid over on it's side..like 90 percent of the boats represented here by TF members...you better have a good liferaft, dingy or be able to tread water in tough conditions.

Unlike the textbook or brochure stability numbers...the weather/sea that it would take to lay your boat over may just overwhelm you and the boat to the point of no return over the long run.

A single broach in a breaking inlet is one thing...getting knocked down repeatedly in storm conditions is a completely different monster. Most of our boats, the windows would get blown out and rapid downflooding would occur. If the windows held some...I think my whole house structure would fail based on the way it was constructed and the way it has deteriorated through the years.

I have seen many vessel sink in front of me while hovering nearby....stability is only a piece of the seaworthiness puzzle despite what you may read or hear from much of the boating world...they haven't "been there" to see the reality of how boats survive or not..
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Old 05-23-2014, 08:52 PM   #191
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Generally (AFAIK) classification societies deal with structure and equipment, and the flag state imposes stability standards. Lloyds, ABS, etc have no stability standards. Hence somewhere back up the thread Mr. Roddan (the NA) states the boat (Baden) complies with CFR..xxxxx. As the US has no pleasure boat stability standard for this sized vessel, I assume that is a commercial standard.

So far, in North America, I have not seen an insurance company ask about stability. They want a survey, surveyors are not trained to assess stability.
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Old 05-23-2014, 09:03 PM   #192
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After watching the launch video, I think it's safe to say that the boat was not fully ballasted. Either that or the engineers seriously screwed up the calculations, but I think partial ballasting is a much more likely answer. Based on how loaded the transport gear was, it's easy to see how the yard would be motivated to only install minimal ballast for the trip down to the water.

It's also pretty clear that the boat had a good heal to it before it got fully in the water, probably because it shifted on the dollies, or there was some collapse of a dolly. Once in the water, that heal was more than the lightly ballasted boat could recover from, and over she went.

I've venture that had the boat been fully upright throughout the launch, she would have stayed upright, they would have completed ballasting, and she would have been fine. But clearly all it took was a relatively modest heal to knock her down and keep her down, and the launch process provided just that.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:19 PM   #193
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Well, the boat is now midway between Fidalgo and Anacortes Marina. Being taken by barge and crane combo to a commercial landing so a larger crane can lift it out. Probably waiting for high tide which is 6 hours away still. Coast Guard required both stability test (while still in sling, as it still is) and an approved transport plan.
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Old 05-24-2014, 10:34 AM   #194
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Merged:Northern Yacht/Oops

Baden being towed out of
Fidalgo Marina yesterday afternoon. Click image for larger version

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Old 05-24-2014, 11:01 AM   #195
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Regardless of state of completion, a bit of a sad photo watching it being towed and held upright by a crane as it makes it's way. The big boat that couldn't? It looks so lifeless, so helpless. And it reflects so much. Is it on it's way to it's graveyard? Will it find itself resurrected at some point? By now it should have reached it's destination. Soon to be removed from the water. Water it was not ready for. Will it ever actually get to be on that water under it's own power?

Dashed are many dreams. Those of it's purchaser join the others waiting on boats sitting in the builder's yard. Join the former employees. Join those who hoped one day to own one.
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Old 05-24-2014, 11:07 AM   #196
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She does look tall but no taller than the pride of Baltimore. She went down in 60 seconds when pressed over by a microburst. One hatch was left open and the down flooding was not survivable. She righted herself as she sank and went to the bottom with all her sails still flying. That guy in the er needing to be taken out through the waterline porthole makes me think the er doors were submerged. Where did all that water come from?


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Old 05-24-2014, 11:10 AM   #197
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Regardless of state of completion, a bit of a sad photo watching it being towed and held upright by a crane as it makes it's way. The big boat that couldn't? It looks so lifeless, so helpless. And it reflects so much. Is it on it's way to it's graveyard? Will it find itself resurrected at some point? By now it should have reached it's destination. Soon to be removed from the water. Water it was not ready for. Will it ever actually get to be on that water under it's own power?

Dashed are many dreams. Those of it's purchaser join the others waiting on boats sitting in the builder's yard. Join the former employees. Join those who hoped one day to own one.

oh good god... don't be such a sap..

your more reflective than the boat is on the water..

it's just a damn boat with issues.. move on

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Old 05-24-2014, 11:11 AM   #198
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Where did all that water come from?


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To be determined, but among many possibilities, the Engine Room doors were open. Then what about those silly windows down almost at the water line?
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Old 05-24-2014, 11:12 AM   #199
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oh good god... don't be such a sap..

your more reflective than the boat is on the water..

it's just a damn boat with issues.. move on

HOLLYWOOD
Say that to the buyer. Or the buyer of the others not completed.
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Old 05-24-2014, 11:15 AM   #200
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I like these windows even better!!! And this boat most likely passed USCG inspection...
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