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Old 01-30-2014, 09:26 AM   #1
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Med Moor--heavy weather at NIGHT

You may remember a video we showed you last year of a high-risk docking maneuver, called Mediterranean mooring, performed by a Ro/Ro passenger ferry at the Greek island of Kimolos in March 2013.
The video was amazing to watch and not just because it looked extremely dangerous, but also because of the awe-inspiring ship handling skills of the captain and crew. In fact, the captain, Captain Isidoros Lignos, has since gained quite the reputation for his ability to perform the Med mooring maneuver to disembark passengers and supplies in heavy seas.
With that in mind, hereís another video of the same ship, the Adamantios Korais, again under the command of Captain Lignos, performing a similar maneuver under similar conditions at the Aegean Sea port of Sikinos Island, Greece this past Saturday.
Now before you call this crazy, just remember that without the supplies and people brought by these ferries, many of the small Aegean Sea islands would literally be cut off from the rest of the world, and the Greeks arenít going to a little heavy weather let that happen.

gCaptain Maritime & Offshore News | WATCH: (Another) Heavy Seas Med Moor in Greece
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:11 AM   #2
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Would love to be an observer at the "risk management meeting" where these tapes are reviewed and the captains given permission to keep doing it.

I understand the consequences...but one loss may equal paying for other means of getting people, cars, supplies to these islands...maybe not...that's what I would love to hear.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:36 AM   #3
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Would love to be an observer at the "risk management meeting" where these tapes are reviewed and the captains given permission to keep doing it.

I understand the consequences...but one loss may equal paying for other means of getting people, cars, supplies to these islands...maybe not...that's what I would love to hear.
The Greek system has a little different view of liability. In many cases you are on your own as far as accepting risk. Many times they don't even have hand rails at steep drop offs. You are just not supposed to go near it.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:41 AM   #4
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The Greek system has a little different view of liability. In many cases you are on your own as far as accepting risk. Many times they don't even have hand rails at steep drop offs. You are just not supposed to go near it.
I don't think I'm talking liability entirely like we think about it...maybe I am an am just ignorant of specifics or terminology...

I'm sure if the Capt screwed the pooch...and the ferry went someplace bad enough to hole and roll....loss of life and cargo would certainly affect something...(if not, boy do we need tort reform even worse than I thought).

Even in the states you can tell some states and towns worry a lot less than others...some places I've just been in FL, such as St Augustine...sea walls without railings, reflective markers, yellow paint...etc...that ain't a happenin' where I come from in New Jersey (unfortunately as safety can get ridiculous and ruin great scenery or historic objects).
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:49 AM   #5
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I would say that a total wipe out would be a different situation. I was speaking of embarking and leaving the ferry by the passengers. I did help a Greek captain one time that was using a spring line to move a 400' ship to the dock. He nearly cut a flat bed truck in two with the spring line. That got me invited to cocktails and dinner with the captain. I was at the rail directly above the wing bridge, and saw what was happening.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:07 PM   #6
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That's kinda my point...at what point does a company reign in it's "risks"...as a senior USCG officer, I had to say yea or nay to going or sending flight crews into stuff well beyond normal training limits..but that was a USCG norm...kinda like what is done in combat vs training for the rest of the military. Loss of helo and crew was NEVER acceptable but always a possibility...then again normal, daylight water training was always a potential total loss.

I discuss and sometimes heatedly argue with my civilian bosses about risk management and sometimes win, sometimes lose. Fortunately the only accident I was witness to but not directly involved with was loading something on a barge where equipment was lost and someone was hurt. That one turned into a lawsuit and I'm sure it hurt profits for a long time.

Loss of an entire ferry, cargo and some pax I think would make a dent in many companies. Then again the Exxon Valdez and the loss of the BP rig were only petty cash occurrences so maybe I'm just too far out of touch with business models.

I know I don't have all the answers...that's why I would love to sit in on a meeting ...if they even ever have one.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:15 PM   #7
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Thanks, Charles, for posting this. There's so much speculation that can be heaped upon the decisions to do things like this, but "service" once had a different meaning here in the US too. Now, if such an example of seamanship took place here in the US, the lawyers would be lined up to sue for reckless endangerment if it docked, and breach of contracts if it didn't. On top of that would be the years of therapeutic treatment for the trauma suffered by the employees (or perhaps passengers) who drove the cars on and off the ship.

Regardless, this is an amazing video and I have nothing but admiration for the awesome ability of this Captain and Crew. I only hope I could learn to manage my own tiny ship as well.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:59 PM   #8
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Thanks, Charles, for posting this. There's so much speculation that can be heaped upon the decisions to do things like this, but "service" once had a different meaning here in the US too. Now, if such an example of seamanship took place here in the US, the lawyers would be lined up to sue for reckless endangerment if it docked, and breach of contracts if it didn't. On top of that would be the years of therapeutic treatment for the trauma suffered by the employees (or perhaps passengers) who drove the cars on and off the ship.

Regardless, this is an amazing video and I have nothing but admiration for the awesome ability of this Captain and Crew. I only hope I could learn to manage my own tiny ship as well.

my admiration for the capt is genuine....I would love to know if there is any issues about doing risky docking like this and what he and his supporters have to offer to support his side of things...

for all I know he is doing it under protest in fear of his job and the company has it's head up its butt..or it could be a great company with a great captain and the overall thoughts are this type mooring is really a piece of cake and nothing to worry about....either way I'd love to hear the discussion and could care less about the liability specifics because that's not really part of operational risk management beyond the it existes and to varying degrees which are just pieces of the puzzle factored in.
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Old 01-30-2014, 01:02 PM   #9
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...a high-risk docking maneuver, called Mediterranean mooring,
Maybe I'm nit-picking, but they make it sound like Med-mooring is inherently high-risk. It can be high-risk when the conditions are bad (like in the video), but under ordinary conditions it is no more high-risk than an other docking maneuver. People do it every day of the year, all over the Mediterranean. Just not usually in those kind of conditions.
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Old 01-30-2014, 01:08 PM   #10
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That ferry is just about like our Alaskan State ferries but I've never seen anything like that in Alaska.

I probably never would have worked on the ferries either if they did stuff like that.

But then if you don't understand what's really going on and what it takes to do something safely it can look very scary. You go down the highway at 70mph in your car and routinely pass by other cars going 70mph so you're passing each other at 140mph. And one car may very likely have a mother w 2 kids in the car texting w no concern about safety. She may do that 100's of times a day .. regularly.

So the ferry and her crew may not have been doing something that scary at all. But it looks scary and reckless.
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Old 01-30-2014, 02:03 PM   #11
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Maybe I'm nit-picking, but they make it sound like Med-mooring is inherently high-risk.
Who is making that claim? Med mooring is nothing more than a stern tie docking. It is done thousands of times a day all over the world without much angst or discussion.

What makes those videos interesting is the weather and the exhibition of ship-handling skills. The drama is in the eyes of the viewer.
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Old 01-30-2014, 02:12 PM   #12
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Risk management is not nearly as important for planning things when they always go right...it's about when something goes wrong.

Lot's of things we do aren't scary because we practice them all the time (often just by doing)....what separates the pros from everyone else is what they do when something goes wrong.

To me with my very limited, and now very rusty shiphandling skills (up to 399 foot icebreakers), most of these moderate/heavy weather med moorings are slightly risky till something goes wrong. I really can't tell what might happen next. I don't know how well the ferries actually handle single engine (by looking at the maneuvering I'm guessing they are twins), whether there is any thruster capability, how is the ground tackle system set up for this kind of use, etc...etc...that's why I would love to be the fly on the wall to listen and learn.
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Old 01-30-2014, 02:19 PM   #13
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Who is making that claim? Med mooring is nothing more than a stern tie docking. It is done thousands of times a day all over the world without much angst or discussion.
Rick

I agree with your statement, except as it applies to me. The first time I med moored Bay Pelican I had enough angst to float the boat.
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Old 01-30-2014, 02:40 PM   #14
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And for the guys tightening the ropes.....
It is team working !!!
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Old 01-30-2014, 03:14 PM   #15
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Team work is right!! I've only had to stern tie twice like that and even with perfect conditions, it was an experience coordinating the activity of the crew.

My hats off to those two captains and crew!!! (And the truck and trailer driver crossing that pitching ramp!!)
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:24 PM   #16
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I don't know how well the ferries actually handle single engine (by looking at the maneuvering I'm guessing they are twins.

Both ferries shown are twin engined.
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:44 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Moonstruck View Post
I did help a Greek captain one time that was using a spring line to move a 400' ship to the dock. He nearly cut a flat bed truck in two with the spring line. That got me invited to cocktails and dinner with the captain. I was at the rail directly above the wing bridge, and saw what was happening.
C'mon Don. Tell us "the rest of the story".
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Old 01-30-2014, 06:23 PM   #18
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DH I love your new avatar!
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Old 01-30-2014, 06:38 PM   #19
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C'mon Don. Tell us "the rest of the story".
Well, I will tell the story illustrated with pictures, but this thread is not the place. I will send you a PM.
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Old 01-30-2014, 06:57 PM   #20
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The Greek system has a little different view of liability. In many cases you are on your own as far as accepting risk. Many times they don't even have hand rails at steep drop offs. You are just not supposed to go near it.
I think it is about liability and I think this off is ego ate oohs enough to remember that the whole liability thing took off in the 80's. In the 50s we were still a country that got things done. Now, it's all cya.

We put fancy names on it, risk management, etc, but the reality is we don't train like we're going to fight anymore and yes, we have far less training accidents, but no one wants to admit that we also have far less capability.
Yes, there is an answer, now if you buy this billion dollar airplane, it can do so much more than the $20m plane.
The usaf took that pill over 20 years ago.

I'm sorry. I digress. It's been an interesting fat, but can't post it from my computer till the weekend.

Later
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