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Old 03-15-2013, 10:31 PM   #61
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Have you seen the sail boat that are built to cross oceans? If front windows are built strong you should have no problems. The higher the bow the more wind will effect docking and picking up a mooring ball. The bows that are really high give a large blind spot forward a real pain when docking or sneaking through crab pots. When the waves are breaking over that bow you will likely no longer want to drive into the weather in any boat even if you have a larger bow.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:34 PM   #62
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I feel like the bow isn't high enough and the sides of the hull seem to close to the water for ocean crossing. I feel like it is more like a fishing boat. Correct me if I am wrong.
Well, lets put it this way. You've been looking at boats for a few months. That boat was designed by a guy who had been designing boats professionally for thirty years then AND IS STILL LIVING AND DESIGNING BOATS TODAY. So the bow and hull are more than likely just fine.

Now you might not like the way it looks. That's different, everyone has their own taste. But that has no bearing on seaworthiness.

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Old 03-15-2013, 11:17 PM   #63
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This is the boat that my mom loves. She has been watching it for a while now.


Your mom has good taste.


Defever is known as a coastal boat. However you are starting to get up there in price where You are probable going to end up even with those other low cost boats. At least you can get financing, insurance, and the total turn around will be reasonable.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:57 AM   #64
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Regarding Tigress's fuel consumption, I would hate to halfway to Galapagos before discovering my calculations were off!! The problem as I see it is that there will be no real world experience with this vessel before setting off.
Tad's approach is good. You need to be able to accurately measure fuel consumption. That is hard to do with a large fuel tank unless you travel a great distance.

As Bebe pointed out in Voyaging Under Power, even when you accurately know your fuel consumption your actual fuel consumption can vary due to head wind, waves and adverse current. Most of the time the 30% reserve will be more than enough but on rare occasions it might not. You need to monitor fuel consumption up until the halfway point and decide if you can safely complete it or if you must return.
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:04 AM   #65
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Greetings,
Ms. GG. I said the zincs should be done on a regular basis NOT necessarily an annual basis. Service regime of zincs/bottom paint will be determined by the water you're in.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:25 AM   #66
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So here's a question I have for all of the fuel calculation folks regarding this boat.

Possibly I'm oversimplifing this, so please correct where I've erred.

The boat was built in Holland

The boat is now in French Polynesia.

If it doesn't have the fuel capacity for world travel, how did it get there?

Possibly its early, and I haven't had enough coffee yet, but from my simplistic way of thinking, other things aside, GG could get this boat home somehow.

Afterall it made it all the way from northern europe to the south pacific.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:32 AM   #67
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Good point, and it is so big it is unlikely it was shipped..?
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:34 AM   #68
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Since I have been admonished for being mean to GG, let me offer some constructive comments assuming for a moment that this is actually a serious discussion of these boats.

The pictures of the boat in Polynesia raise a lot of concerns, but the quality of the picture itself is always an issue when looking at YW. The exterior and interior painting, especially the latter look very slap dash, as if someone was merely trying to cover something up. You can see paint spatters on the floor and all over the place in the ER pix. You can detect cracking and discoloring under the paint in several places. (Photo 25,26,27 and others in that sequence) Compare the whitewashed Gardners on this boat vs what the "like new" Gardner we were oohing and aahing about on another thread recently. The exterior paint looks dull and unfaired. The "before" pix showed rust stains and other fairness issues. This is all a huge red flag. While professional pictures taken by a disinterested third party would help a lot With the boat that far away, it would be worth finding a local independent photographer to do this, with instructions from a surveyor on what to photograph.

There does appear to be a stabilizer system pictured in photo 27. But certainly needs verification as well as name, model and year of installation and operational status of all systems and electronics.

From what can be gleened from the listings, locations and Scott's observations, the boat in Emeryville is by far the less expensive of the two, by several hundred thousand dollars (my pure guess, based solely on the info and pictures available, is more like a million dollars), delivered to the east coast and brought to equivalent standards of sea worthiness. On boats of this age and complexity, the purchase price can often be the least of the expenses over the course of three years.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:42 AM   #69
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I feel like the bow isn't high enough and the sides of the hull seem to close to the water for ocean crossing.
Here's a 90' fishing boat that I have fished on. It has a relatively low bow and the cockpit is also low to the water. (Better for fishing, boarding, supplying, etc.) After (God knows) how many open water miles, she's still one of the most "in demand" long range boats in San Diego.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:51 AM   #70
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The pictures of the boat in Polynesia raise a lot of concerns,
George, I didn't copy your entire post, but agree completely.

GG is facing a tough situation here.

She is clearly a smart, sincere person who really wants a certain size boat on a certain size pocketbook, and the two are not mating up to get a "turnkey" boat of that size.

I was thinking about the particular boat in the post, then extending the thinking to almost any boat of that vintage and one thing comes to mind.

That thing is maintenance.

Its not a stretch to say that I could maintain that boat, but I have a lifetime of maintaining electrical and mechanical things. Those skills are learned skills that come over decades of practice.

The thing that GG needs to realize, and I hope she reads this, is that maintaining a older boat with aging systems is not a simple thing. Its not within the skill set of probably most of large boat owners. After all as it was so correctly put in another thread, most large boat owners have been concentrating, IE building skills in their area of expertise, which probably has nothing to do with boats.

So, GG if you are reading this, please understand that almost any older boat you buy will require to have someone onboard that can fix the hundreds of "little" things that can and will go wrong. Don't stop your dreams, we're rooting for you, just keep this in mind.
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:05 AM   #71
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My main concern is that the listing does not mention stabilizers or thrusters, both of which would be on my must have list. ....I think I could single hand Tigress if she had hydraulic bow and stern thrusters.
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:37 AM   #72
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Love the boat.

But there is something strange with the company who is claimed to have build the boat in The Netherlands.

In the the late 1940th my grandfather was director of the yard, named "Werf Conrad N.V." In 1957 the yard went in bankruptcy. The remains where bought by the Stork family and the name changed in "Werf Conrad & Stork Hijsch N.V" My grandfather became director of "Stork Machine Fabrieken Hengelo N.V."

This new company "Werf Conrad & Stork Hijsch N.V" stopped building boats and changed to the manufacturing of large crane's.

Where does the name "Conrad N.V. Kalp Holland" come from?

PS. The name "Werf Conrad" was an Honeur to ir. F.W. Conrad, he was a dutch engineer and official represetative of the Suez Canal Company in Port Sad.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:33 PM   #73
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GG

I believe Scott has indeed found a worthy vessel, the Sutton DeFever located in CA. If it were me, I'd talk with Scott in BC and have him go with you to CA to do a thorough pre-survey inspection and work up an estimate to get the vessel sea ready. Then you will be prepared to make an offer (or walk away) and go to survey.

A few comments
  • It has as close to right engines for that vintage as you could hope for - DD 671Ns.
  • DeFever designed the vessels for good sea keeping and longevity.
  • For extended blue water work, the only issues with most DeFevers is that the window thickness is a bit thin and fuel range less than 2000 nautical miles. Neither of these should be an issue with this boat
  • Two low hour gensets is very nice to have
  • Good fuel range at 7 or so knots - I'd guess an easy 2500 nm, or more.
  • A close look at some newer instruments such as Nobeltec or other PC based plotters, weather/fax/radio, AIS and radar/plotter combination may be in order.
  • Forget the vessel in Polynesia for previous stated reasons - plus I have found vessels from there are lesser cared for as the owners are usually living a dream, without free cash to spend on boat maintenance
BTW, most if not all of this advice you are getting is worth exactly what you have paid for it. But you can unknowingly pay for bad advice when you are out of your element, so be wary.
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:03 PM   #74
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So here's a question I have for all of the fuel calculation folks regarding this boat.

Possibly I'm oversimplifing this, so please correct where I've erred.

The boat was built in Holland

The boat is now in French Polynesia.

If it doesn't have the fuel capacity for world travel, how did it get there?

Possibly its early, and I haven't had enough coffee yet, but from my simplistic way of thinking, other things aside, GG could get this boat home somehow.

Afterall it made it all the way from northern europe to the south pacific.
Excellent point Kevin!
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:12 PM   #75
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If it were me, I'd talk with Scott in BC and have him go with you to CA to do a thorough pre-survey inspection and work up an estimate to get the vessel sea ready. Then you will be prepared to make an offer (or walk away) and go to survey.
Not that I'd turn down an offer to go look at boats :-) but in this case I probably don't need to see the boat (named Starlight, by the way). I've been aboard twice, once when she was docked in Seattle and I snuck on, and once in Nanaimo when the owner showed me around. She was a 10++, and I'm pretty picky. There are a few things that I would do a bit differently, but nothing serious.

The layout can't be beat, and I know that because I've lived with it. In fact, Starlight even has a captain's cabin in the pilothouse, which I don't. The one real downside of that is that docking Starlight must be a real bitch, because you can't see the aft end from either of the helm stations.
  • It has as close to right engines for that vintage as you could hope for - DD 671Ns.
    Yep, totally bulletproof.
  • DeFever designed the vessels for good sea keeping and longevity.
    Yep, this was done before any of his production boats. We typically think oof Defever's a pleasure boats, but from 1938 through 1960 he mostly designed fishing vessels, in particular tuna clippers. These went to sea for months at a time and had to handle whatever the sea threw at them.
  • For extended blue water work, the only issues with most DeFevers is that the window thickness is a bit thin and fuel range less than 2000 nautical miles. Neither of these should be an issue with this boat
    Nope, and in fact this is where Starlight is a much better offshore boat than Island Eagle, I have large front-facing windows.
  • Two low hour gensets is very nice to have
    These are brand-new since I saw the boat in 2006. Did I mention that this guy was fastidious?

All in all, it will make some new owner a very fine vessel.

Scott Welch
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:14 PM   #76
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Here's a 90' fishing boat that I have fished on. It has a relatively low bow and the cockpit is also low to the water. (Better for fishing, boarding, supplying, etc.) After (God knows) how many open water miles, she's still one of the most "in demand" long range boats in San Diego.
Yeah, she's a fishing boat right? That was what I meant in my comment. The Defever also looks like a fishing boat to me, not like a transatlantic boat. This boat also doesn't look to me like a passagemaker. Long range, yes, but ocean crosser? But, we all know I don't know much, so explain to me how I'm wrong. Were these boats built for ocean crossing? Does the low bow and stearn not matter? I want to make informed decisions.
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:18 PM   #77
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Since I have been admonished for being mean to GG, let me offer some constructive comments assuming for a moment that this is actually a serious discussion of these boats.

The pictures of the boat in Polynesia raise a lot of concerns, but the quality of the picture itself is always an issue when looking at YW. The exterior and interior painting, especially the latter look very slap dash, as if someone was merely trying to cover something up. You can see paint spatters on the floor and all over the place in the ER pix. You can detect cracking and discoloring under the paint in several places. (Photo 25,26,27 and others in that sequence) Compare the whitewashed Gardners on this boat vs what the "like new" Gardner we were oohing and aahing about on another thread recently. The exterior paint looks dull and unfaired. The "before" pix showed rust stains and other fairness issues. This is all a huge red flag. While professional pictures taken by a disinterested third party would help a lot With the boat that far away, it would be worth finding a local independent photographer to do this, with instructions from a surveyor on what to photograph.

There does appear to be a stabilizer system pictured in photo 27. But certainly needs verification as well as name, model and year of installation and operational status of all systems and electronics.

From what can be gleened from the listings, locations and Scott's observations, the boat in Emeryville is by far the less expensive of the two, by several hundred thousand dollars (my pure guess, based solely on the info and pictures available, is more like a million dollars), delivered to the east coast and brought to equivalent standards of sea worthiness. On boats of this age and complexity, the purchase price can often be the least of the expenses over the course of three years.
George,
Thank you for the helpful comment. Maybe your right. Maybe they are trying to hide stuff. The boat isn't that young. I think that is very good advice to send a proffesional photographer to take pics before doing anything. That is probably something that I should do with any overseas boat.
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:28 PM   #78
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That is probably something that I should do with any overseas boat.
No, you just shouldn't be considering an overseas boat.

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Old 03-16-2013, 04:36 PM   #79
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Professional photographers are often paid to make things look better than they really. Vogue models being a case in point!! Might be better to find a boat knowledgeable individual with a decent digital camera. Do not need to be an expert these days to take decent photos. How you find that type of help in remote locations is a big question. Perhaps via boater websites (Cruisers Forum??). There are often sail boat types cruising in these exotic locations and many probably have decent cameras. Perhaps a small financila incentive might get some responses from interested parties. Unless you really want a vacation in Tahiti, it is a long way to go just to check out a boat based on a listing ad.
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:45 PM   #80
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Regarding bow height and low to water concerns. Our Selene has a high bow which in conjunction with the Portuguese bridge helps deflect the big ones from washing over the deck. Having said that we have still been in conditions where we were shipping water over the top of the pilot house. In my book, high bow is good. On the other hand, our mid ship and stern decks are relatively close to water level. That has never been an issue even under tough conditions. If a large wave were to hit us from the stern it would be a problem even if the deck were quite a bit higher, same for the side hit. Thing is you do not want to expose your boat to these conditions in the first place. The (high) bow is meant to go through the water first!! Having the salon accommodation and decks nearer to sea level makes the boat more stable and less rolly - definitely more comfortable underway or at anchor.
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