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Old 03-15-2013, 11:42 AM   #21
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Trouble is, I believe the nearest refueling point to Polynesia is in the Galapagos and that leg is about 3,500nm. So, based on the theoretical consumption calculations, the vessel would need fuel bladders totaling 50% (1350 US gallons) more than its present tankage, increasing loaded weight by another 10,000lb, and the voyage would take 3 weeks at 7kts. BTW, I know that Venezuela has cheap fuel, but I hate to think what it might cost to fill up in the Galapagos??? Also, as another aside, A Selene 53 just set off on the reverse voyage from the Galapagos to Polynesia.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:44 AM   #22
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Sewage

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... The sewage holding tank is only 132 gallons. Does the dock you plan to stay at have a sewage line? With 7 people I doubt the tank would hold more than a day's sewage...
I made a wrong assumption about how long a holding tank is good for. Here is a map that shows No Discharge Zones on part of the northern seaboard. "No Discharge Areas" In New England Waters | US EPA This means you must use a holding tank, but only for toilet waste. Shower, sink, washing machine, dishwasher can be discharged. You cannot use a Marine Sanitation Device (MSD) to treat and discharge toilet waste in a No Discharge Zone. Marine Sanitation Devices | Vessel Water Discharge | US EPA Most marine toilets use 2 to 3 quarts. The average person is likely to use the toilet 8 times per day so that's about 4.5 gallons per person per day so a holding tank of 132 gallons is good for 4 days with 7 people. Marine vacuum-flush toilets use about 1.5 pints per flush or about 3 times less so the tank would be good for 12 days.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:52 AM   #23
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This is a beautiful old ship!! But, before you go much further I would seriously check out whether you would ever be able to insure it, at any price, even with a full-time qualified captain. You would need to insure for the journey to US East Coast (8,000 miles??), then on an ongoing basis. You will need additional fuel capacity to make it from Polynesia to the nearest refueling in Galapagos (approx 3500 nm) I do not agree with the draft comment - 6ft (2m) is quite normal for sailboats or full displacement trawlers. You will not be able to cruise the Florida Keys!!
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Technically there is no need to insure a vessel for use on the high seas, or even coastal waters. It's typically the marinas that require insurance.

Of course, with that said, if you self-insure and you have something like a small grounding, with a little leakage of a few thousand gallons of diesel and some lube oil, maybe somewhere like Puget Sound or the Chesapeake... you can be looking at a cleanup bill in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. And don't just dismiss this as an impossibility, it can and does happen. And with all levels of government increasingly short of cash, they are going to be keen to recover expenses.

As I have pointed out before, when I attempted to get insurance on Island Eagle I was required to take a two day check-out voyage with a Transport Canada licensed captain, who then wrote a fairly detailed letter to my insurance company about my ability to captain such a vessel. And note that I have been boating for 30 years.

Once again, there are no shortcuts to owning a vessel of this size and complexity.

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Well put, gentlemen. Though I disgree with Chris with regards to range- a friend of mine with a 48' Selene made the trek from Mazatlan to French Polynesia without refueling (2850 miles)...

The steel vessel is insurable. However, insuring companies will have fairly stringent requirements to offer coverage. Note I didn't say "may"- I said "will". Unless you have significant passagemaking experience and ownership experience, you will need a skipper (license carrying skipper with relevant experience) for this boat, for both the transit and for operations around your homeport. As you gain experience under the tutelage of the skipper, your insurance carrier will consider removing the requirement for a licensed skipper.

This will apply whether you find a boat overseas or domestically. Island Eagle is correct in that there is no requirement for insurance, unless you finance the vessel or your marina/moorage requires coverage. Not having coverage would, in my opinion, be highly irresponsible.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:53 AM   #24
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When we are cruising in no-discharge zones, we do not flush the yellow stuff each time. By letting it mellow a few times it saves the 3-4 qts flush from the electric head each time you go. We also have a manual head, in addition to the electric head, which allows a much smaller flush to save holding tank volume.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:16 PM   #25
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I double checked the distance and according to Selene 53, Mystic Moon's blog, they figure the crossing from Galapagos to the Marquesas is about 3,000 nm and will take less than the calculated 21 days at 6.0 kts because they hope to gain speed with a favorable current and a small sail to average 6.5 kts SOG. In the reverse direction, I would assume the current and winds would work to slow down the vessel. They are carrying 3 fuel bladders totaling another 435 gallons for a grand total of 1,635 gallons on-board. Based off of my own fuel consumption experience with a similar vessel, I would guesstimate their fuel consumption at about 2.5 gph for a single engine vessel weighing about 80,000lb at 6kt, giving them a range of 3,900nm at 6kt, or 3,000nm with 23% spare. This not theoretical. The owners of Mystic Moon are very experienced cruisers with over 20K passage miles.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:26 PM   #26
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Raiatea-yacht.com - Yacht Broker in French Polynesia - Raiatea, Tahiti

Marine Surveyor in Raiatea, French Polynesia: Christophe Citeau, Tel : 79 63 81

Note that he is recommended by a yacht broker so be careful.

Here is another http://www.yachtworld.com/byp/catego...ynesia.html.en
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:37 PM   #27
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I double checked the distance and according to Selene 53, Mystic Moon's blog, they figure the crossing from Galapagos to the Marquesas is about 3,000 nm and will take less than the calculated 21 days at 6.0 kts because they hope to gain speed with a favorable current and a small sail to average 6.5 kts SOG. In the reverse direction, I would assume the current and winds would work to slow down the vessel. They are carrying 3 fuel bladders totaling another 435 gallons for a grand total of 1,635 gallons on-board. Based off of my own fuel consumption experience with a similar vessel, I would guesstimate their fuel consumption at about 2.5 gph for a single engine vessel weighing about 80,000lb at 6kt, giving them a range of 3,900nm at 6kt, or 3,000nm with 23% spare. This not theoretical. The owners of Mystic Moon are very experienced cruisers with over 20K passage miles.
Not doubting your math, Chris, but here is the info from the log of the MV Further (48' Selene, Mazatlan to Marquesas, French Polynesia)- no bladder tanks for the trip:

04/05/2010 Furthur in the Marquesas
The first crossing of a major ocean by a Selene is complete!!
After 17 days and 7 hours, 416 engine hours and 2719 miles we dropped the hook in Altuana on Hiva Oa in the Marquesas Islands early on the afternoon of 4/3. It was a long wonderful largely uneventful crossing. We only saw two other vessels, one large one small after we left the coastal traffic of Mexico. We did not have winds over 20 knots and had mostly large following seas. The boat performed flawlessly, the engine purred unchanged for the entire trip at 920 rpm. I landed just over 1/3 tanks so my fuel usage was as anticipated, about 900 usg.
There are 9 boats in the anchorage and we are the only Yanks. We have already made new friends and just enjoyed a magnificent meal with the crews from two boats. We are in the land of French cooking!
The Marquesas are more beautiful than I imagined, a total treasure. I have looked forward to this day for many years and it was all I had hoped for, I am full of gratitude.


(Blog) Passage to Marquesas Islands: 4/5/10 Log of...

about the boat - 07/17/2009
Furthur is a 2005 Selene 48 Ocean Trawler. She is a full displacement heavy weather trawler with 1100 usg fuel. The design and construction of the Selene make it a perfect long range vessel. At 6.5 knots i have a 3250 mile range with a 10% reserve.

She is powered by a Cummins QSL 9ltr 330 hp diesel engine. I chose this engine for it's heavy displacement and slow rpm's, max 1800 rpm, 8 knot cruise, 4 gph, 1150 rpm, and passagemaking speed, 6.5 knots, 950 rpm 2 gph. She holds 1100 usg fuel and 300 water. I have Wesmar fin stabilizers and a Wesmar APU get home system.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:00 PM   #28
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Pau Hana: We have a 47ft Selene with 280 Cummins. We typically burn about 2.5gph at 7.5kt and 1650rpm (max 2600rpm). It would appear that Further's QSL version is a bit more efficient than our 5.9BTA. However, I find it hard to believe that the old Gardner twins are so efficient. Even figuring the shorter distance at about 2,800nm, the Tigress would still need to carry an extra 600 gallons or so of fuel in bladders.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:42 PM   #29
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Good point- Chris. Looking up the burn rates for the Gardner 6XL, I found that 7-8 LPH (1.8-2.2 GPH is the average burn rate (7-8 knot speed).

You really think that 10,000 liters (2641 gallons) would be inadequate for a trip from FP to the US mainland (2800 miles)? At 1 NMPG, she would fall only a couple of hundred miles short of goal. I think that she would get better MPG than than that, based on a speed of advance of about 5-6 knots.

Either way, I'd love to crew on that trip!
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:45 PM   #30
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My spreadsheet indicated that if Tigress slows to 6.2 knots she will consume 4 gal/hr providing a range of 2,856 NM with 30% reserve. This passage would require 360 hours or 15 days.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:52 PM   #31
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Interesting thread at
Need: Steel Pilothouse Shrimper to Convert - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
See post #3
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:54 PM   #32
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Regarding Tigress's fuel consumption, I would hate to halfway to Galapagos before discovering my calculations were off!! The problem as I see it is that there will be no real world experience with this vessel before setting off.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:20 PM   #33
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Greetings,
Ms. GG. Mr. westwinds raises valid concerns to which I will add one other. A steel hull is in need of regular zinc maintenance. More so than wood or FRP. You could be looking at a hefty expense to haul and re-zinc on a regular basis. I don't think this is a diver job. The boat has to be hauled. To my understanding the old zincs have to be ground off and new ones welded on. Just one more thing to add to the equation...
My 35-foot steel Coot has eleven zincs. They are spaced along the bottom of the hull as well as attached to the rudder and propeller shaft. They're screwed/bolted onto the hull, not welded. Thus, zincs are a minor cost.

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Old 03-15-2013, 02:27 PM   #34
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Regarding Tigress's fuel consumption, I would hate to halfway to Galapagos before discovering my calculations were off!! The problem as I see it is that there will be no real world experience with this vessel before setting off.
No, you run trials in the harbour over a measured mile.....everyone should do this. Disassemble the fuel system (if you don't have a day tank with return) and run feed and return lines into a plastic jug. Put fuel in the jug, mark the level, run a mile at fixed RPM, mark the level, calculate burn. Run two ways over the mile to correct for current and wind, average results. Make runs at every 100 RPM to create your own personal fuel use map.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:31 PM   #35
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Tad: Sounds a bit too theoretical for me. If you said 100 miles I might even begin to believe the results!!
Regarding welding zincs. I do not think that it is even possible to properly weld zinc blocks to steel.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:36 PM   #36
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I think its worse than the boats she been looking at. Does not fit her basic requirement of being a live aboard for 6, the salon and staterooms are small, shippy stark. The boat is a AC electric power hog, and probable being built in Europe has the 240 European wiring again. The engine hours were not listed, old gardener engines, and parts/service might be hard to find. The helms access/location/visiblity is a concern. It will be a real bitch to dock the boat. Still does not have the range, water and holding tanks and no heat. Being steel has also been mentioned but the fuel tanks would be a big concern. The tanks are my biggest concern about the Eagle.

UNLESS GG has 500 grand cash/funds to drop in the boat. She might be able to get financing for the boat, but they do not finance for moving the boat, up grade/remodel that requires cash and time. Plus the total turn around cost and cash flow will be far more than buying a million plus boat.

If she is interested in steel, she should go back and look at the un finish steel in organ and finish/pimp out the interior for 200+ grand. I still like the 66 Choy Lee as it will make a great live aboard and has the basic/potential to cross oceans as windows, doors, hand holds, stabilization can be added later when/if needed.

You should already have liability insurance, weather you insure the boat or not.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:37 PM   #37
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My 35-foot steel Coot has eleven zincs. They are spaced along the bottom of the hull as well as attached to the rudder and propeller shaft. They're screwed/bolted onto the hull, not welded. Thus, zincs are a minor cost.
The latest solution is switching from zinc to aluminum anodes, significantly increasing time between haulouts. Crowley Maritime use aluminum on their 200 vessel fleet and go 3 years between haulouts.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:49 PM   #38
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Tad: Sounds a bit too theoretical for me. If you said 100 miles I might even begin to believe the results!!
Regarding welding zincs. I do not think that it is even possible to properly weld zinc blocks to steel.
It's a bit counter intuitive I guess. A longer run will decrease accuracy due the inability to measure consumption to the milliliter......notches on a dipstick don't account for tank shape, slop, changes in trim or heel, etc. If you are worried about sea state differences you go outside the harbour and mark out your mile at sea.

Zincs for steel boats come with a weld on steel strap cast into them. The strap can be drilled to use bolts as well.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:08 PM   #39
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Regarding welding zincs. I do not think that it is even possible to properly weld zinc blocks to steel.
Shipyards (not boatyards) that work on commercial boats get zincs that have cast-in steel straps. The steel straps are then welded on to the boat.

And what do they do with the old zincs they take off? Well, here's what they do at the shipyard I use: they cast prop zincs in place. Here are a few pictures, they use a very large coffee can (1 gallon?), with putty all round. They melt the zinc with a torch, then pour the molten zinc around the nut. Pretty cool. (by the way if you look carefully in the first pictures you can see the steel straps on the old zincs)

Scott Welch
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:58 PM   #40
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Thanks for the zinc info
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