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Old 03-24-2013, 05:44 PM   #201
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Fuel tankage 800 gallons, so you have decided not to cross oceans?
This is my Plan B boat. You havn't been following this thread, but my Plan B would be to purchase something that is not ocean-going now, then trade her in later for something that would cross. My teens will be off to college in a few years. For the Plan B, I would want to purchase something that is either short money and chaulk up the loss if I can't sell or something that will not completely depreciate to 0 and I could get a small piece of the money back later.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:47 PM   #202
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100' houseboat. Boston. I don't think so. Even stupid me wouldn't do that. But that being said it's not me looking to buy. Now that Florida Bay Coaster, I believe they're built in either Guatamalae or Elsalvador and come to the states on there own bottom. The one that sank in the upper Chesapeake in rough weather had something come loose in the engine room and putting a hole in the hull. Coastal cruiser they are and most are steel.Larry
Yeah, I believe they say it was a battery. Which I can't picture, but there must be more to it.

That's interesting. I didn't know they were built in SA.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:51 PM   #203
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Do you guys think the Florida Bay Coaster will be okay to make Carribean runs?

Also, the shallow draft 4' 6" should put me back on the ICW?
Caribbean would be a piece of cake for this boat. Even though 4' 6" draft for her size is shallow, you still will have to be careful in some of the anchorages. If you see a pristine anchorage but only multi hulls are anchored, probably should pass it up.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:21 PM   #204
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Damned if she do & damned if she don't.....

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Fuel tankage 800 gallons, so you have decided not to cross oceans?
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:12 PM   #205
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...
Westwinds,
It has John Deere engines, with low horespower, so it should get great fuel economy, right?

2000 Florida Bay Coaster 60 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
A diesel is not like a gasoline engine where a smaller engine can give better economy. This has to do with the fact that a gasoline engine has a throttle that cuts back the amount of air that gets into the cylinders. However, a diesel engine always pulls the same amount of air into the engine no matter what the amount of fuel injected into the cylinders. This constant air volume results in better efficiency because the fuel burns hotter resulting in more air expansion from the additional heat developed, giving more power no matter what the power setting. Gasoline engines are more efficient at higher power settings up to the point where excess fuel may be used for engine cooling like in an aircraft engine. Diesel also has a higher compression and the fuel more energy per gallon so more horsepower per gallon, but that’s beside the point.

I used a water line length of 68 feet since the bow of this trawler goes almost straight down and a weight of 140,000. I used two speeds.

At 9.9 knots, 2000 RPM engine speed and 100 propeller horsepower for each engine, the fuel burn is 5.2 gallons per hour for each engine, which gives .95 miles per gallon. For those that are curious, the speed length ratio is 1.2,


At 8.24 knots, 1666 RPM, and 58 propeller horsepower for each engine, the fuel burn is 3.1 gallons per hour for each engine, which gives 1.33 miles per gallon. The speed length ratio is 1.0. Below this RPM setting slobbering can occur because the power is below 40%. If the speed length ratio is taken any lower than 1.0, the engine RPM should be brought up to 2333 RPM occasionally to clear out the carbon.


Here is the link to the propeller power curves: http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/engines_and_drivetrain/specsheet/MAR/perf_curve_documents/6068TFM50_ALL.pdf


For trawler use with the horsepower demand being a constant amount on a cruise setting, these engines should not exceed more than 154 horsepower or 2333 RPM using horsepower curves. If this is exceeded, excessive engine wear will result. It is possible to get 225 horsepower from these engines at 2600 RPM so lets hope the owners kept the RPM below 2333. A mechanic needs to check for excessive wear with a compression test and used oil analysis.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:18 PM   #206
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Yeah, I believe they say it was a battery. Which I can't picture, but there must be more to it.

...
If it was a battery bank, maybe a short could get hot enough to melt the steel? Well I am having trouble, like you, trying to picture what happened.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:02 PM   #207
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A diesel is not like a gasoline engine where a smaller engine can give better economy. This has to do with the fact that a gasoline engine has a throttle that cuts back the amount of air that gets into the cylinders. However, a diesel engine always pulls the same amount of air into the engine no matter what the amount of fuel injected into the cylinders. This constant air volume results in better efficiency because the fuel burns hotter resulting in more air expansion from the additional heat developed, giving more power no matter what the power setting. Gasoline engines are more efficient at higher power settings up to the point where excess fuel may be used for engine cooling like in an aircraft engine. Diesel also has a higher compression and the fuel more energy per gallon so more horsepower per gallon, but that’s beside the point.

I used a water line length of 68 feet since the bow of this trawler goes almost straight down and a weight of 140,000. I used two speeds.

At 9.9 knots, 2000 RPM engine speed and 100 propeller horsepower for each engine, the fuel burn is 5.2 gallons per hour for each engine, which gives .95 miles per gallon. For those that are curious, the speed length ratio is 1.2,


At 8.24 knots, 1666 RPM, and 58 propeller horsepower for each engine, the fuel burn is 3.1 gallons per hour for each engine, which gives 1.33 miles per gallon. The speed length ratio is 1.0. Below this RPM setting slobbering can occur because the power is below 40%. If the speed length ratio is taken any lower than 1.0, the engine RPM should be brought up to 2333 RPM occasionally to clear out the carbon.


Here is the link to the propeller power curves: http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/engines_and_drivetrain/specsheet/MAR/perf_curve_documents/6068TFM50_ALL.pdf


For trawler use with the horsepower demand being a constant amount on a cruise setting, these engines should not exceed more than 154 horsepower or 2333 RPM using horsepower curves. If this is exceeded, excessive engine wear will result. It is possible to get 225 horsepower from these engines at 2600 RPM so lets hope the owners kept the RPM below 2333. A mechanic needs to check for excessive wear with a compression test and used oil analysis.
Great response!!! As expected. Thanks.
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:45 PM   #208
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Now those boats are interesting. I have a sort of strange reaction to them, because I think they look a bit ungainly and sort of top-heavy, but they aren't. One owner of one about the same size, carries a car and a small chopper in the deck, so they must be a lot more stable than they look. And inside, they are fabulous. I was able to have a look at this one,
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(built in Australia out of aluminium - the only one not steel I understand - was great once ballast was added), at the Sanctuary Cove Boat show a few years back. I was very taken with it as a really beaut coaster, as the name implies. The internal room is amazing.
They certainly look 'different', but at the same time very 'salty' and 'business-like', and they sort of grow on you. So over all...I rather like them.
If you compare the price - ie same price in $A being asked for this 45' as the 60' one in the $US, it's probably good value for the money.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:07 PM   #209
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What do you guys think of the Florida Bay Coaster?

Westwinds,
It has John Deere engines, with low horespower, so it should get great fuel economy, right?

2000 Florida Bay Coaster 60 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I love them. Always have. Would love to have one where I live.

You could call up Jay Benford and talk to him about them. I chatted with him about another design of his a few years back. There was a great article in Wooden Boat many years ago about the stability curve of the hull. Or maybe it is a Woodenboats design book. Anyways, I learned a lot from the article. I have it at home but not electronically.

On the one that sank, the 8D batteries weren't fastened down and one had knocked the dripless seal off of it's face allowing water in. Free surface effect anyone?
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:12 PM   #210
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...

I used a water line length of 68 feet since the bow of this trawler goes almost straight down and a weight of 140,000. I used two speeds.

At 9.9 knots, 2000 RPM engine speed and 100 propeller horsepower for each engine, the fuel burn is 5.2 gallons per hour for each engine, which gives .95 miles per gallon. For those that are curious, the speed length ratio is 1.2,


At 8.24 knots, 1666 RPM, and 58 propeller horsepower for each engine, the fuel burn is 3.1 gallons per hour for each engine, which gives 1.33 miles per gallon. The speed length ratio is 1.0...
I made an error. Somehow I changed the length of the boat to 70 feet rather than 60 feet. Substitute the following for the above:

I used a water line length of 58 feet since the bow of this trawler goes almost straight down and a weight of 140,000. I used two speeds.

At 9.14 knots, 2000 RPM engine speed and 100 propeller horsepower for each engine, the fuel burn is 5.2 gallons per hour for each engine, which gives .88 miles per gallon. For those that are curious, the speed length ratio is 1.2,

At 7.62 knots, 1666 RPM, and 58 propeller horsepower for each engine, the fuel burn is 3.1 gallons per hour for each engine, which gives 1.23 miles per gallon. The speed length ratio is 1.0.

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Old 03-24-2013, 11:41 PM   #211
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I never liked the Florida Bay Coasters. They have a V hull that is truncated in the center to form a flat bottom for gunk holing and beaching. I worry about the flat bottom pounding if the wave height gets bigger than twice the draft.

They are fine for small lakes, rivers and the ICW, but not large lakes, bays, seas or oceans IMHO.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:50 AM   #212
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Do you guys think the Florida Bay Coaster will be okay to make Carribean runs?

Also, the shallow draft 4' 6" should put me back on the ICW?

GG now you're looking at what I think is your kind of boat!

You could (if you watch your weather) travel anywhere along a coastline, or island hop.

Did you know that between the ICW and inland waterways there are something like 22,000 miles of navigatable waterways you can explore? Then there's a lifetime that could be spent in the Carribean.

If you want to explore europe, ship the boat. Its not cheap, but in comparison with that large of a passagemaker its a bargain.

The ONLY reservation I have with that particular boat is that if you want to cruise the Great Loop there is a 19' bridge that must be cleared, in Chicago if memory serves correctly.

Another boat along those same lines is the Great Harbor.

Good Hunting!
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:24 AM   #213
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So now that you are looking at more realistic boats...

Here are a few to consider. All in your area, all with 4 cabins, all appear to be in relatively good condition, all asking under 400K (and remember, your initial offer on any of these should be at 50% of asking). Don't worry about the big engines on the Derecktor and the Hatteras, you can always run these around hull speed.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=70951&url=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1747&url=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...url=&imc=pg-fs

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Old 03-25-2013, 12:40 PM   #214
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So now that you are looking at more realistic boats...

Here are a few to consider. All in your area, all with 4 cabins, all appear to be in relatively good condition, all asking under 400K (and remember, your initial offer on any of these should be at 50% of asking). Don't worry about the big engines on the Derecktor and the Hatteras, you can always run these around hull speed.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=70951&url=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1747&url=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...url=&imc=pg-fs

Scott Welch
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Scott – Congrats!

IMHO: Those three boats are the best selection yet offered for GG and Meme and family... at least for stable, well outfitted, and comfortable starters that could make them pleased for their first years of marine life. After that sky’s the limit! Hope they see the light.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:59 PM   #215
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So now that you are looking at more realistic boats...

Here are a few to consider. All in your area, all with 4 cabins, all appear to be in relatively good condition, all asking under 400K (and remember, your initial offer on any of these should be at 50% of asking). Don't worry about the big engines on the Derecktor and the Hatteras, you can always run these around hull speed.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=70951&url=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1747&url=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...url=&imc=pg-fs

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
There is the problem of slobbering also known as wet stacking that can destroy a diesel engine when running it at low speed:
Caterpillar - Leaking - Online Community
See the 5th message down.
"General rule of thumb to reduce slobber, for every eight hours running engine below 45% load, run engine at least one hour above 75% load"
What I have read is 40% power for older designed engines to prevent slobbering.

Diesel generator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
scroll down to end of article for last heading titled Engine Damage.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:15 PM   #216
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There is the problem of slobbering also known as wet stacking that can destroy a diesel engine when running it at low speed
The Detroit Diesel 71 Series engines are one of the toughest, most basic diesel engines on the planet. They are close to indestructible. While it's possible that they could be damaged by prolonged low-speed running, it's extremely unlikely that a pleasure boater would be able to do so, given the low number of actual hours accumulated.

I know of a local boat which is a gulf coast crew boat converted to a charter dinner cruise boat, I'm sure those engines have not been over 1200 RPM in 15 years, and she seems fine to me. She runs almost every night in the summer, and that represents many, many more hours than typical pleasure use.

I personally run Island Eagle at 1350 RPM, and have never had a problem.

All in all, I'd rate this as pretty low on the worry front.

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Old 03-25-2013, 03:25 PM   #217
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Crunched a few more numbers. Say that it is decided to run the John Deere 6048TFM50 engines at 45% of the maximum continuous power rating of 154 horsepower because this is more conservative than 40% to prevent slobbering. This means the boat now goes 8.12 knots at 1830 RPM, uses 7.6 gallons per hour and gets 1.07 miles per gallon.

Say the boat is low on fuel so lets go 5 knots at 1100 RPM, use 2.2 gallons per hour and get 2.27 miles per gallon and worry about running at 75% power for an hour when there is plenty of fuel.

The speed length formulas from which I take these numbers are for an average boat. These numbers may vary depending on the actual boat. If you have a long narrow beam boat such as this: http://www.gerrmarine.com/power_70.html and look at Iron Heart boat, the speed length ratio can go beyond 1.34 as the maximum hull speed.

For any particular boat, it would be wise to do actual fuel consumption and speed under no wind and no current conditions, making a run in either direction to average out just in case there is a little bit of wind and/or current. Make sure the bottom of the boat and the propeller are clean

The 6068TFM50 John Deere engine can be pushed beyond the 154 horsepower to 225 horsepower for 5% of the time, say if you have a storm trying to push you onto the breakers. Well in that case, I guess forget the 5% and just get out of there. Anyway that extra horsepower is available under really adverse conditions so use it if needed.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:41 PM   #218
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The Detroit Diesel 71 Series engines are one of the toughest, most basic diesel engines on the planet. They are close to indestructible. While it's possible that they could be damaged by prolonged low-speed running, it's extremely unlikely that a pleasure boater would be able to do so, given the low number of actual hours accumulated.

I know of a local boat which is a gulf coast crew boat converted to a charter dinner cruise boat, I'm sure those engines have not been over 1200 RPM in 15 years, and she seems fine to me. She runs almost every night in the summer, and that represents many, many more hours than typical pleasure use.

I personally run Island Eagle at 1350 RPM, and have never had a problem.

All in all, I'd rate this as pretty low on the worry front.

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
When I tried to do so, I was not able to find propeller power curves for any of the Detroit series of 71 cubic inches per cylinder engines. I also have a vague recollection that the Detroit engines handle low speed better than some diesels so I cannot argue the point. The Detroit engines are good for about 10,000 hour or more before needing attention if maintained properly. The stacks also run cooler because more than three times the cylinder volume is pushed through the engine by the roots blower which is nice for insulation of the stacks for heat. I can remember putting my hand on a fishing boat stack with no insulation and being able to keep it there it was running so cool. The captain said to try it and I was really surprised. They can make a lot of noise; though, when run near full power. These engines also are rumored to use about one third more fuel than some engines because of the power needed to run the roots blower. If I remember correctly, the normal RPM range is 1800 to 2200 so the RPMs you give really seem low to me but maybe all is good.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:25 PM   #219
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Scott – Congrats!

IMHO: Those three boats are the best selection yet offered for GG and Meme and family... at least for stable, well outfitted, and comfortable starters that could make them pleased for their first years of marine life. After that sky’s the limit! Hope they see the light.
Art,
How about if I just sit back and you can tell me which boat is good for my family (that you have never met). When you are done picking the boat, because you know us best, I will go buy it and then we will be forever delighted with it because you said that this is the way it should be
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:42 PM   #220
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Crunched a few more numbers. Say that it is decided to run the John Deere 6048TFM50 engines at 45% of the maximum continuous power rating of 154 horsepower because this is more conservative than 40% to prevent slobbering. This means the boat now goes 8.12 knots at 1830 RPM, uses 7.6 gallons per hour and gets 1.07 miles per gallon.

Say the boat is low on fuel so lets go 5 knots at 1100 RPM, use 2.2 gallons per hour and get 2.27 miles per gallon and worry about running at 75% power for an hour when there is plenty of fuel.

The speed length formulas from which I take these numbers are for an average boat. These numbers may vary depending on the actual boat. If you have a long narrow beam boat such as this: http://www.gerrmarine.com/power_70.html and look at Iron Heart boat, the speed length ratio can go beyond 1.34 as the maximum hull speed.

For any particular boat, it would be wise to do actual fuel consumption and speed under no wind and no current conditions, making a run in either direction to average out just in case there is a little bit of wind and/or current. Make sure the bottom of the boat and the propeller are clean

The 6068TFM50 John Deere engine can be pushed beyond the 154 horsepower to 225 horsepower for 5% of the time, say if you have a storm trying to push you onto the breakers. Well in that case, I guess forget the 5% and just get out of there. Anyway that extra horsepower is available under really adverse conditions so use it if needed.
They are representing a 1500 nm range. They are also representing 1500rpm = 10/gallons hr @ 8.5knots with generators on.

I'm uncertain how a gallon a mile, with a 800 gallon tank could equate to 1500nm range. So, to get the 1500nm would you have to run the boat at 5 knots?
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