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Old 10-06-2016, 05:39 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
A broker is not a surveyor, 2 separate professional skill sets. If traveling 500(or whatever distance)miles to see a boat represents a hardship hire a local surveyor to give it a quick once over to answer your questions. One can likely source that service for less than the cost of a plane ticket.
Oh Great One CPseudonym, past moderator and guru [don't take offense now - OK?]

You kinda missed the whole point here - right?

Are you suggesting a prospective buyer hire a remote surveyor - to inspect a boat to determine what the boat specifications are?

Instead of demanding documentation from the seller / broker?
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Old 10-06-2016, 05:41 PM   #42
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ksanders

You are correct, the 375 or 389 does not make any difference. But 300 and 1200 does, if you are in search for LRC.
In my case, the issue was not the capacity, but what was it made of. Many of the members say here, replace the tanks on an old boat to something else than old iron. If the replacement cost you 25K because of the size of the tanks, it does matter on a boat listed for 120K. If the same boat needs a new set of props for 12K, also makes the difference.
Yes, the broker will not and cannot know everything and all the info comes from the seller. I agree. But to post few photos of the ER, any broker can and should do. It is nice to see boat being beautiful inside the living quarters. But the soul of the boat is the ER and the hull, in my opinion. If I could see the photos of the ER, I would not bother the broker, at all. We could both benefited from it. His time and my trip was wasted. Some brokers take the effort and show the bilge, engine mounts, ER completely, hidden hull sections, stains from water damage, etc. Unfortunately, not all.
So, no, I don't expect a broker to know all the nicknecks of a boat down to the screws diameter, but wasting my time and his time, could have been avoided.
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Old 10-06-2016, 05:59 PM   #43
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When I'm in the hunt I learn EVERYTHING there is to learn about the model I am after. Of course I will have surveys, bank and insurance require it after all, but for myself it is only a confirmation of what I already know from my own inspections..
How about looking at it this way.
I know what I would prefer, but the market does not always deliver what I want. Plus, there is no perfect boat.
When I search, I also have basic guidelines and I know what direction I wish to go. This is why, not all, but important information discloser should be put out there.
If I want to buy a used car, I drive down the dealership area and look around. If I see Jaguar, BMW, Benz cars on the floor, but I am on the market for a Toyota, Ford, etc., I will not go to those dealerships. I will go the shop, where they sale my type of cars. I cannot do it with boats. Marinas mostly locked, boats too. How could I see, if I like a boat, or not? The only way is with a broker/seller. So, giving me deal breaking information ahead, saves time for all of us.
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:19 PM   #44
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you guys still just don't get it with your questions to the brokers. Think about it like this probably everything the broker knows about a certain boat is in the listing.

The only other thing the brokers going to know about the boat is this general impression of it as he did a walk-through. He might know something about the owner or the boats history, but the specific stuff like whether the generator has 1000 or 1025 hours on it he doesn't know and it really doesn't matter anyway to someone who's really going to buy a boat. Seriously do you really care whether the fuel tanks have 375 gallons or 389 gallons each capacity? We both know that is not going to affect your decision to buy the boat.

So you've got 100 grand to spend on a boat. That's a lot of money. You've obviously made some good decisions in life. You saved hard and have done pretty well. The problem is in the world of cruiser size boat boats a hundred thousand dollars is not a lot of money, I'm sorry but it's actually a really small amount of money if you're looking at boats in the 40 to 50 foot range. You can believe me when I tell you how surprised I was and how much big boats really cost.

Then the other issue you have to look at it when you're on your world and you see a listing with very little information especially in older boat the boat is probably a dog. The simple fact is that when an owner comes in the list his boat if it's a nice boat it's been well-maintained the guys gonna have all kinds information to give to the broker. It's the POS boats were a guy or his widow or state comes in with very little information.

Also when you look at listings, the only and I'm gonna repeat that the only real bargains out there are brand-new listings. If the boat has been listed for a while especially a lower price boat there's a reason it has not sold.
ksanders,

Good points, but most of us buyers "DO" get it. Before plunking down $100K + or traveling hours to look, it's only prudent to have all the info you need to satisfy the sale. When you go see the boat, you already have the specs, good pictures and a pretty good idea so you verify things.

The way the ad is written or how long the boat has been on the market have little to do with it's value as a "good deal" or a dog. Sometimes the boat doesn't sell because it's not marketed properly, not shown properly (EG the OPs experience), or overprices. I've found many good buys in the above, just negotiated a good price and bought. In fact, sometimes a poorly marketed and overpriced boat turns out to be the best deal. Most boats are bought and sold on emotion and you never know how the seller feels a few months down the road.
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:20 PM   #45
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ksanders

You are correct, the 375 or 389 does not make any difference. But 300 and 1200 does, if you are in search for LRC.
In my case, the issue was not the capacity, but what was it made of. Many of the members say here, replace the tanks on an old boat to something else than old iron. If the replacement cost you 25K because of the size of the tanks, it does matter on a boat listed for 120K. If the same boat needs a new set of props for 12K, also makes the difference.
Yes, the broker will not and cannot know everything and all the info comes from the seller. I agree. But to post few photos of the ER, any broker can and should do. It is nice to see boat being beautiful inside the living quarters. But the soul of the boat is the ER and the hull, in my opinion. If I could see the photos of the ER, I would not bother the broker, at all. We could both benefited from it. His time and my trip was wasted. Some brokers take the effort and show the bilge, engine mounts, ER completely, hidden hull sections, stains from water damage, etc. Unfortunately, not all.
So, no, I don't expect a broker to know all the nicknecks of a boat down to the screws diameter, but wasting my time and his time, could have been avoided.
If there's no pictures of the engine room there's a reason . Do you really think a brokers going to take all kinds of pictures of all kinds of cool stuff and bypass perfectly pristine engine room because he doesn't want to lift a hatch? No the reason why there are no pictures of the engine room is because it looks like ass

I'm going to have to disagree with you regarding the "value" of a boat that's been listed for a long time.

The only thing that makes an old listing into a real bargain is the potential to get it for a much lower than the listing price. If it were a great bargain, someone would've bought it. Do you think you're the only guy looking at yacht world every day? There are hundreds or thousands of guys out there looking at yacht world every day trying to find a bargain gen. When they come up on the market, someone buys them right away.

What's left, are boats that represent a fair value for what you're getting. Not bargains, but a fair value for what you're buying. Some are of course overpriced for what you're getting. But my opinion is there are not boats out there that of been listed for a while that are undervalued. If they were undervalued some smart guy would buy them and resell them at their actual value pocketing the profits.
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:24 PM   #46
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I am of the opinion that if you don't understand how boats and their systems are put together you shouldn't own one.
...
But, to each his/her own. What works for me may not work for you.
That is terribly unfair and these two quote really contradict each other. Bess and I knew very little... basically zero... about large boat ownership. Now, we are some of the more knowledgeable ones we know. You CAN learn as you go. Then there is the whole fraternity of "check writers" that also enjoy boating without lifting a finger for maintenance or upkeep. Don't look too far down on people that have a dream and follow it.
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:38 PM   #47
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I agree ksandars, if there are no pix of the engine room or the heads, it's a sign to move along, unless a buyer doesn't mind a major project.

As for the questions about tankage and other details, too often the broker doesn't bother to post any specs or too few. I have seen numbers that make no sense, no hours shown, etc.

I've looked at more than a dozen boats in the last couple of years and very rarely do they live up to the glowing description on yachtworld. "Ready to cruise!" means after a hundred grand in repairs and upgrades.

I know a few brokers I trust and one I trust highly, but have never used a "buyers broker".
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:39 PM   #48
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Oh Great One CPseudonym, past moderator and guru [don't take offense now - OK?]

You kinda missed the whole point here - right?

Are you suggesting a prospective buyer hire a remote surveyor - to inspect a boat to determine what the boat specifications are?

Instead of demanding documentation from the seller / broker?
Offense? Me??? lol

As to the rest happy hour must be going on now as your reading comprehension seems to be lacking. I could explain it to you but cannot understand it for you.
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:48 PM   #49
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My 100K budget obviously is no comparison to the 1-5 million buyers's. I am not naive. But what happened to the ' good business practices '? Every customer should be welcomed, poor or wealthy. But again, a commission on a million dollar boat pays more bills at home. Got it.
Whoa..... In your 4th post on this forum, you stated your budget was $60-80K and you would need financing and that was almost 3 years ago. Kind of sounds like tire kicking to me.
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Old 10-06-2016, 07:10 PM   #50
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Whoa..... In your 4th post on this forum, you stated your budget was $60-80K and you would need financing and that was almost 3 years ago. Kind of sounds like tire kicking to me.
Sometimes it takes that long, and we change our mind and budget, nothing wrong with that.

A few years back I shopped for 3 years before I bought.... and still bought the wrong boat.
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Old 10-06-2016, 09:08 PM   #51
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The problem about how the boat is represented by the broker is the broker holds out, to gain your confidence, he is an expert and usually, that the boat is a great boat. He does those things because he is a salesman, whether they are right or wrong is another matter.
In my dealings with brokers, on 3 boats, I met 2 I trusted. One in NSW, one in Qld. And I met quite a number. If the broker really does not know the ins and outs of the boat and relies instead on industry known specs, he takes a risk, especially if he claims to know the boat inside out, such that his reputation is easily trashed if caught out.
I have no doubt there are "buyers" who are a PITA to deal with. I`d expect a broker to qualify buyers and attend to them accordingly. "A" class buyers are ready willing able and hot to buy, mistreated they can will and do buy elsewhere, without warning. A broker who gets repeat business, who has been in operation a long time, and runs a tight ship, even with employees, appeals. The question is finding one.
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Old 10-06-2016, 10:31 PM   #52
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Whoa..... In your 4th post on this forum, you stated your budget was $60-80K and you would need financing and that was almost 3 years ago. Kind of sounds like tire kicking to me.
True, true, all correct. That was 3 years ago, when I was climbing out of a disastrous divorce. 3 years was needed to pay all the divorce bills and save enough. Now I am in good shape and ready. I hope you believe me?
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Old 10-06-2016, 10:45 PM   #53
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Do you think you're the only guy looking at yacht world every day? There are hundreds or thousands of guys out there looking at yacht world every day trying to find a bargain gen. When they come up on the market, someone buys them right away.
Maybe you are correct. So, what is the way to get those short lived bargains? Could you recommend other ways that just browsing YW daily? I wish there were other sources available for us, bargain hunters.
Do brokers have special listings, like the real estate brokers?
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:00 AM   #54
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Maybe you are correct. So, what is the way to get those short lived bargains? Could you recommend other ways that just browsing YW daily? I wish there were other sources available for us, bargain hunters.
Do brokers have special listings, like the real estate brokers?
It's what you've been told but keep fighting some other battle instead. Buyer's broker.
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:01 AM   #55
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Oh Great One CPseudonym, past moderator and guru [don't take offense now - OK?]

You kinda missed the whole point here - right?
No, he's not the one missing the whole point.
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Old 10-07-2016, 08:01 AM   #56
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I'm going to have to disagree with you regarding the "value" of a boat that's been listed for a long time.

The only thing that makes an old listing into a real bargain is the potential to get it for a much lower than the listing price. If it were a great bargain, someone would've bought it. Do you think you're the only guy looking at yacht world every day? There are hundreds or thousands of guys out there looking at yacht world every day trying to find a bargain gen. When they come up on the market, someone buys them right away.

What's left, are boats that represent a fair value for what you're getting. Not bargains, but a fair value for what you're buying. Some are of course overpriced for what you're getting. But my opinion is there are not boats out there that of been listed for a while that are undervalued. If they were undervalued some smart guy would buy them and resell them at their actual value pocketing the profits.
This notion that if it's a good idea than someone else would have done it is absurd. That would rule out every advancement and invention, ever.
Example:
There was a CHB 34 posted on this forum for sale in Seattle two years ago. Boathouse kept, never used and had 25+- hours on the engine. It was on the market a few months before I learned of it. Went out there and inspected the boat and it was in fact a pristine, never used all original 34. Bought her, spent a week decorating her and adding a few items and sold her in two months for over three times what I paid. Her owner is thrilled with his "perfect" boat.

There are bargins all over YW that have sat for years. Often it is a matter of a very small market for a particular boat, a difficult viewing location or owner clutter or poor housekeeping that is hiding the great boat that lies underneath.
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Old 10-07-2016, 10:13 AM   #57
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This notion that if it's a good idea than someone else would have done it is absurd. That would rule out every advancement and invention, ever.
Example:
There was a CHB 34 posted on this forum for sale in Seattle two years ago. Boathouse kept, never used and had 25+- hours on the engine. It was on the market a few months before I learned of it. Went out there and inspected the boat and it was in fact a pristine, never used all original 34. Bought her, spent a week decorating her and adding a few items and sold her in two months for over three times what I paid. Her owner is thrilled with his "perfect" boat.

There are bargins all over YW that have sat for years. Often it is a matter of a very small market for a particular boat, a difficult viewing location or owner clutter or poor housekeeping that is hiding the great boat that lies underneath.
OK, you're a broker... This is what you do for a living.

Why aren't you and all the rest of the professionals out there buying up all these "bargains" and re-selling them? The answer is simple... Professionals will buy a true "bargain" when they find it and re-sell it. Thats because a true bargain has enough difference in the price you can get it for and the price you can sell it for to make it worthwhile.

Case in point is the boat you mentioned. Didn't you buy that boat and re-sell it? Yes, that boat was a bargain.

The rest of the boats out there, especially the ones that have been listed for some time are boats that represent a fair value for the dollar(or are overpriced), and are just waiting for a buyer to come along that wants that particular boat.

My statement also stands, in that MOST of the boats that are older, and priced lower than the competition are priced lower for a reason.

This thread is about why some buyers are ignored by often more than one broker. My opinion is that is because these buyers are shopping and not buying. Perpetual boat shoppers are great, but they do not make a broker a dime unless he can find them their mythical unicorn, that rare boat that represents a true "bargain" that hasn't already been snatched up by someone who does this for a living.

Case in point, a guy that has been actively shopping for three years. Thats a non starter for anyone that makes money off of a sale. Others here that I've seen (and been) decide they want a larger boat, do their research and actually buy a boat that works for them.

Go look at my original posts from April 2011. I was the owner of a 28' cruiser that wanted to move up. I asked some questions here, and did some research, and in August I bought my current boat. That is a 4 month time line. Lots of others here do the exact same thing. They have a reasonable time line from idea to purchase. These are the kind of clients that a broker will spend time on, because brokers as you know need to sell actual boats to feed their families.

There is a time to do market research on your own, and a time to engage the services of a professional. In my opinion the time to engage the services of a professional is when you are actually ready, and intend to buy. Then it becomes the brokers job to find you the boat that best meets all of your needs.
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:32 PM   #58
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It's what you've been told but keep fighting some other battle instead. Buyer's broker.
Exactly

More often than not the agent that represents himself turns out to have a fool for a client. Some can pull it off quite well but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

For the record one of the brokers I mentioned upthread that has my respect has no problem selling clients $5,000 boats for the normal 10% commission. As he said, string together enough of them and you can still have a decent month. Better than a big goose egg.
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Old 10-07-2016, 01:27 PM   #59
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Exactly

More often than not the agent that represents himself turns out to have a fool for a client. Some can pull it off quite well but they tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

For the record one of the brokers I mentioned upthread that has my respect has no problem selling clients $5,000 boats for the normal 10% commission. As he said, string together enough of them and you can still have a decent month. Better than a big goose egg.
The small boats are what feed the family while they wait for the big sale.

For those who have such a disdain for brokers and have shown it here, so much that many here would not want them as a client, I give this warning. Your opinion of brokers is a self fulfilling prophecy. You go in with that attitude and none of them will want to deal with you, and don't think for one moment you're masking it. Now, the only one you can change is yourself so I'd suggest thinking long and hard about how to work more pleasantly and effectively with brokers. The best way is still working with only one so you don't have to deal with those you don't like. You're choosing to punish them and yourself by sticking to your current methods of contacting selling broker after selling broker for years. The system isn't going to change.
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Old 10-07-2016, 02:10 PM   #60
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Now, the only one you can change is yourself so I'd suggest thinking long and hard about how to work more pleasantly and effectively with brokers. The best way is still working with only one so you don't have to deal with those you don't like. You're choosing to punish them and yourself by sticking to your current methods of contacting selling broker after selling broker for years. The system isn't going to change.
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