Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-19-2012, 07:25 AM   #21
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,524
For frequent day fish trips , I would look at boats designed for that specific task.

Speed seems to be important to get to and return from the fish grounds , and is realistically ONLY found in plaining fish boats.
__________________
Advertisement

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 10:00 AM   #22
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,363
For the past decade or so DeFevers have been built at Pocta on mainland China. They are quite busy right now with the largest DeFever under construction at 70 feet. As previously mentioned, comparing thirty year old boats by "brand" is indeed a crap shoot.

For an experienced yacht type mate or surveyor, after 10 minutes aboard any vessel they'll quickly know if the previous owner(s) treated their boat well. That is why a pre-survey walk through by the right guy is helpful. Things to look for if the owner claims it to be in good shape and able to pass survey:
  1. Junk laying around - neat or sloppy.
  2. Water in bilge with an oil sheen on top
  3. Clean ER, bilges and lazarette
  4. Oil drips a no show, a few absorbents in place are OK
  5. Water stains around interior windows
  6. Boot stripe area foul or clean
  7. Varnish, waxing and detailing up to date
  8. Add ons (thrusters, instruments, wiring, diesel heat etc) done well
  9. Covers for dinghy, windows, flybridge instruments in place and in good shape
  10. Correct anchor and rode
Yup, 10 minutes will tell you if the boat is worth spending more time on, assuming you don't stand around and BS. If you are looking for a project boat, buy for the name brand, it will sell quicker if re-done correctly.
__________________

sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 12:13 PM   #23
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
For the past decade or so DeFevers have been built at Pocta on mainland China. They are quite busy right now with the largest DeFever under construction at 70 feet. As previously mentioned, comparing thirty year old boats by "brand" is indeed a crap shoot.


For an experienced yacht type mate or surveyor, after 10 minutes aboard any vessel they'll quickly know if the previous owner(s) treated their boat well. That is why a pre-survey walk through by the right guy is helpful. Things to look for if the owner claims it to be in good shape and able to pass survey:
  1. Junk laying around - neat or sloppy.
  2. Water in bilge with an oil sheen on top
  3. Clean ER, bilges and lazarette
  4. Oil drips a no show, a few absorbents in place are OK
  5. Water stains around interior windows
  6. Boot stripe area foul or clean
  7. Varnish, waxing and detailing up to date
  8. Add ons (thrusters, instruments, wiring, diesel heat etc) done well
  9. Covers for dinghy, windows, flybridge instruments in place and in good shape
  10. Correct anchor and rode
Yup, 10 minutes will tell you if the boat is worth spending more time on, assuming you don't stand around and BS. If you are looking for a project boat, buy for the name brand, it will sell quicker if re-done correctly.
good advice thanks. What do you mean name brand? chb seem to be defever clones but definately not defevers. Boats built under license as defevers seem to be better than others, at least the few i have seen. I've only seen chb, defevers and GB's. Still like the design of the gb32 but good ones are pricy
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 12:19 PM   #24
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
For frequent day fish trips , I would look at boats designed for that specific task.

Speed seems to be important to get to and return from the fish grounds , and is realistically ONLY found in plaining fish boats.
In all the times I've been out speed was only an issue if the anglers were impatient to fish or at the other end impatient for the cocktail lounge or restruant. Well, it is kinda fun to blast over waves for about two waves worth, wakes everyone up
My daughter used to laugh at the boats speeding past us to get to the fishing grounds first then after an hour they would blast off to another spot. We would just putt alone and would eventually catch fish. I remember one day when she was 9-10 saying," dad, how can those guys catch any fish if all they do is race from place to place, you cant fish at that speed can you dad".
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 12:38 PM   #25
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Boats built under license as defevers seem to be better than others, at least the few i have seen.
DeFever designs appear to me to be more complex aka labor intensive to build assuming one follows the design accurately. This may be one reason that these boats tend to be well made--- the yards building them are willing to take the time to do it right which, of course, is reflected in the price of the boat.

CHBs, like many of the so-called Taiwan Trawlers, were aimed at a "mass market" if it can be said there is such a thing in this kind of boat. So the parent company made the hulls and then farmed them out to local boatyards for completion. This is why their build quality tends to wander all over the map, at least in the boats from the 70s and 80s. Each yard used somewhat different methods and materials even within a particular boat brand.

This is really the only major contribution American Marine brought to the table with their Grand Banks line of boats. First in wood and then in glass, every one of them was made by the same people in the same yard to the same specs using the same materials, systems, and hardware. GBs are well made boats, but there are other boats that are just as well made. What GB did/does is offer consistency.

More recently the same can be said for Nordic Tug, Hatteras, Nordhavn and so on.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 03:00 PM   #26
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
DeFever designs appear to me to be more complex aka labor intensive to build assuming one follows the design accurately. This may be one reason that these boats tend to be well made--- the yards building them are willing to take the time to do it right which, of course, is reflected in the price of the boat.

CHBs, like many of the so-called Taiwan Trawlers, were aimed at a "mass market" if it can be said there is such a thing in this kind of boat. So the parent company made the hulls and then farmed them out to local boatyards for completion. This is why their build quality tends to wander all over the map, at least in the boats from the 70s and 80s. Each yard used somewhat different methods and materials even within a particular boat brand.

This is really the only major contribution American Marine brought to the table with their Grand Banks line of boats. First in wood and then in glass, every one of them was made by the same people in the same yard to the same specs using the same materials, systems, and hardware. GBs are well made boats, but there are other boats that are just as well made. What GB did/does is offer consistency.

More recently the same can be said for Nordic Tug, Hatteras, Nordhavn and so on.
I am new to this game but i have already noticed the consistant quality with GB's. There dosent seem to be many Nordic Tugs, Hatteras or Nordhavins out this way to look at. Most seem to reside on the east coast.
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 03:10 PM   #27
Veteran Member
 
Formosa's Avatar
 
City: Campbell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Levada
Vessel Model: 1983 Formosa 42 Europa
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 55
I believe many popular Taiwanese trawlers of the past were designed by respected naval architects -- Arthur DeFever, Bill Garden, Edwin Monk Sr/Jr, and so on. Floyd Ayres got credit for some of the early Marine Trader/CHB designs. They seem to have been paid for their original design work by the client/importer/yard that commissioned it but royalties on ongoing production was spotty. And yards/importers often massaged designs on their own to produce "new" or bigger models, often without consultation with the original designer.

So my theory is that the initial designs are sound (hence so many still around 40+ years later) but detail work and systems installation varied in quality depending on the yard (or at least the importer's supervision at the yard). Virtually all eastern trawlers were built to a price point. A Marine Trader might be a Chevy, my Formosa might be a Pontiac, Marin's GB may be a Buick, and some bigger more custom trawlers may be Cadillacs in their original market placement. But all these years on, the question may be: Is it better to have a well-maintained Chev or a clapped-out Caddy. That's why many replies mention the importance of current condition and owner history rather than original designer.
__________________
Joe
Formosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 03:13 PM   #28
Veteran Member
 
Formosa's Avatar
 
City: Campbell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Levada
Vessel Model: 1983 Formosa 42 Europa
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
I am new to this game but i have already noticed the consistant quality with GB's. There dosent seem to be many Nordic Tugs, Hatteras or Nordhavins out this way to look at. Most seem to reside on the east coast.
Look a little further north. There are tons of Nordic Tugs, American Tugs, Nordhavns, etc. for sale in Washington and BC.
__________________
Joe
Formosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 03:43 PM   #29
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Joe is right. Nordic and American Tugs are made here in Washington. While American Tug is a newer entry into the market, Nordic Tugs have been in production since the early 80s. So there are lots of used models to pick from. Most popular and numerous sizes are the original 26', the 32' and the 34'.

GBs, CHBs, and all the other similar makes are numerous here because the waters from here up through SE Alaska are exactly the sort of environment all these boats were designed for in the first place.

Tollycrafts are all over the place up here, again partly because they were made here and partly because this environment is what they were designed for.

The downside to the large presence of all these types of boats in this area is the higher prices they tend to command in comparison to places like California, the Gulf, Florida, and the east coast. While the economy has changed a lot since 1998, when we bought our old GB the same model, year, and condition of GB36 that we found and bought in the SFO Bay area cost about $15k to $20k more up here simply because the 1000 mile-long, inside waters cruising ground we have here puts a premium price on boats that are so well designed for it.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 03:55 PM   #30
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
the tugs seem so small even though i have not inspected one yet in person and tolly's have kinda flat bottoms that don't look like sea boats just delta boats. The willards are sailboat hulls with not much room inside. I'll just have to keep kicking tires. After thanksgiving i am going to look at a few in so cal. I'll bet there is little water damage to the topsides on ones from down there. Most seem to be single engine ford lehmans
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 03:56 PM   #31
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturnaisland View Post
Look a little further north. There are tons of Nordic Tugs, American Tugs, Nordhavns, etc. for sale in Washington and BC.
I wish i had run accross a tug or two while i was up there last week but i didnt. The holidays have me spinning wheels i guess. I should have spent the whole week up in the sound shopping
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 04:08 PM   #32
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
The tugs are lighter because, once they started putting bigger engines in them, they can cruise faster than the typical diesel cruiser. In fact the tug people coined a term for their boats, "fast trawlers." Which is a bit of an oxymoron although I suppose no more inaccurate than calling a recreational cruiser a "trawler" in the first place.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 04:24 PM   #33
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
The tugs are lighter because, once they started putting bigger engines in them, they can cruise faster than the typical diesel cruiser. In fact the tug people coined a term for their boats, "fast trawlers." Which is a bit of an oxymoron although I suppose no more inaccurate than calling a recreational cruiser a "trawler" in the first place.
chuckle...so thats were fast trawler began. Are tugs more economical to operate than the typical trawler then?
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 04:30 PM   #34
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
chuckle...so thats were fast trawler began. Are tugs more economical to operate than the typical trawler then?
Probably all depends on how you operate them. Go fast, you'll use a lot of fuel. Go slow and you won't.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 04:34 PM   #35
Veteran Member
 
Formosa's Avatar
 
City: Campbell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Levada
Vessel Model: 1983 Formosa 42 Europa
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
I wish i had run accross a tug or two while i was up there last week but i didnt. The holidays have me spinning wheels i guess. I should have spent the whole week up in the sound shopping
I suggest checking out Northwest Yachting magazine, a high-quality free monthly available at many regional chandleries and marinas (but, alas, not in Coos Bay -- the closest place to get it is Crescent City to the south or Newport to the north). But you can go to nwyachting.com to read the online edition for listings of literally hundreds of trawlers and coastal cruisers, for sale both at brokers and privately. Next to Yachtworld, it is probably the best trawler/powerboat hunting resource on the west coast.
__________________
Joe
Formosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 04:59 PM   #36
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Probably all depends on how you operate them. Go fast, you'll use a lot of fuel. Go slow and you won't.
over the years i have grown more and more fond of puttin along with a fishing line out than going fast. Just nice to putt along with nature and the voice of the sea as her currents, breath, conveys her intent.
Now i often dont even bother with the fishing pole.

God bless all and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!

my favorite holiday

a matter of principal Marin<smile>.....
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 06:16 PM   #37
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,887
ya also gotta know who to believe...for 30 years or so I though Albins were well built boats...after 1000 man-hours of redoing the bottom, decks, flybridge, sanitation, electrical...etc..etc... the mags, surveyors and previous owners may need a few lessons on a well built boat.

If Albins were middle of the road in construction...I'd hate to have to redo something further down the list.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 06:39 PM   #38
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturnaisland View Post
I suggest checking out Northwest Yachting magazine, a high-quality free monthly available at many regional chandleries and marinas (but, alas, not in Coos Bay -- the closest place to get it is Crescent City to the south or Newport to the north). But you can go to nwyachting.com to read the online edition for listings of literally hundreds of trawlers and coastal cruisers, for sale both at brokers and privately. Next to Yachtworld, it is probably the best trawler/powerboat hunting resource on the west coast.
thanks.
The Yatchsman is the one i am most familiar with printed in the SF bay area
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 10:32 PM   #39
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
The tugs are lighter because, once they started putting bigger engines in them, they can cruise faster than the typical diesel cruiser. In fact the tug people coined a term for their boats, "fast trawlers." Which is a bit of an oxymoron although I suppose no more inaccurate than calling a recreational cruiser a "trawler" in the first place.
Beneteau, essentially sailboat builders, make a 42ft boat they call a "fast trawler" ,2 engines of around 300hp. It was at the Boat Show, looked lightly built and not enough saloon for size. I was too busy drooling over the Alaska 46 anyway.
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 11:38 PM   #40
Senior Member
 
City: EC FL
Country: USA
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 171
I was fortunate to spend a half hour with Mr. DeFever a few years ago. He is adamant that the boats he designs are not trawlers but motor yachts.

He said that trawlers drag nets around the sea bed. He pointed out that early in his career he did design trawlers, but he has not done so in 40 years.

He is well over 90 years old but still sharp. I asked him to send me copies of his drawings of my boat no matter what the cost, but he said there was a problem with who actually owned the drawings.

He told me his favorite design was my Jensen Marine 40, but I suspect he says that to all the “girls”.

Nice guy, smart, and an incredibly skilled draftsman who really knows boats. I hope he gets his drawing ownership issue worked out before he leaves us.

Mike

Edit to add -

The marine design software I own has a very hard time drawing the bow of a DeFever. Too many compound curves for nurb surfaces to fair.

I can duplicate it by hand with ducks and splines after a lot of thought but Rhino, Prosurf, and Autoship just go crazy. Mr. DeFever really was a skilled draftsman.

Ever wondered why late model boats look the way they do? It’s the software.

Mike
__________________

Sceptic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012