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Old 08-03-2016, 06:55 AM   #121
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In the mean time, I'll be discussing the downsides of all of this with fellow boaters, marina managers, corporate offices, and State funding offices in Michigan and Wisconsin.
So Semi, what is your position on all those municipal marinas in Michigan that are propped up by the tax payers. With the limited season, new Captains lounges and heavy staff they appear to be a employment opportunity for the towns. I think its a conspiracy for the greater good.
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Old 08-03-2016, 09:09 AM   #122
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So Semi, what is your position on all those municipal marinas in Michigan that are propped up by the tax payers. With the limited season, new Captains lounges and heavy staff they appear to be a employment opportunity for the towns. I think its a conspiracy for the greater good.
A disgusting waste of tax payer dollars and I said so at several government planning meetings before it happened. The down turn in boating was looming. Thank consultants for the miscalculation and waste. A number of the new facilities are hugely underutilized (and accidents waiting to happen). Overall, a crime.

The boater lounges are an embarrassment...white elephants to house washers and driers. Probably get high marks from Active Captain users.

All of these facilities are managed by one or two adults who are on contract to the city/town. The city hires a bunch of local kids to complete the staffing. All low cost, but good for the local kids. The old facilities might have required a few more of them because of more maintenance. Grant money for large projects dried up a couple of years after Detroit tanked. Too late.
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Old 08-03-2016, 09:28 AM   #123
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Wow, and the beat goes on.
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Old 08-03-2016, 10:06 AM   #124
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A disgusting waste of tax payer dollars and I said so at several government planning meetings before it happened. The down turn in boating was looming. Thank consultants for the miscalculation and waste. A number of the new facilities are hugely underutilized (and accidents waiting to happen). Overall, a crime.

The boater lounges are an embarrassment...white elephants to house washers and driers. Probably get high marks from Active Captain users.

All of these facilities are managed by one or two adults who are on contract to the city/town. The city hires a bunch of local kids to complete the staffing. All low cost, but good for the local kids. The old facilities might have required a few more of them because of more maintenance. Grant money for large projects dried up a couple of years after Detroit tanked. Too late.
Municipal marinas are a "disgusting waste of tax payer dollars "? Seriously? What do you think of public schools? Parks and playgrounds? Public recreation center and swimming pools? For that matter, what about police and fire fighters?

I would be against municipal marinas if they are in direct competition with privately owned marinas (whose tax dollars are used to build a marina to compete with them), but if there are no private marinas around, municipal marinas bring business to the municipality and give us boaters back a little bit of the tax money we contribute each year.
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Old 08-03-2016, 10:27 AM   #125
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Municipal marinas are a "disgusting waste of tax payer dollars "? Seriously? What do you think of public schools? Parks and playgrounds? Public recreation center and swimming pools? For that matter, what about police and fire fighters?

I would be against municipal marinas if they are in direct competition with privately owned marinas (whose tax dollars are used to build a marina to compete with them), but if there are no private marinas around, municipal marinas bring business to the municipality and give us boaters back a little bit of the tax money we contribute each year.

Municipal marinas can either be a great thing for a community to invest in, or a boondoggle as semi-planing thinks. Why should city taxpayers pay money so that visiting boaters have a nice place to stay? This is not the same as city services that serve the residents, transient marinas serve those from the outside. If there is moorage for locals that is a good thing, but it could easily be argue that those that can afford boats that need moorage aren't the folks that the city should be devoting limited resources to, things like schools, parks, rec programs, police, fire, potholes etc are probably more important.

That ignores the economic development aspect however. In some cases, municipal marinas provide a net economic gain for a community, increasing business, providing tax revenue, and providing jobs. Seasonal jobs for youth have significant value beyond simply the wage they earn. It is always something of a crap shoot as to whether the anticipated benefits actually materialize, and given the long term nature of these types of projects, often the economic climate is different upon completion than it was when it was proposed.

So like many things, whether it is a disgusting waste of tax payer dollars or a canny investment depends on a lot of factors and each project needs to be evaluated on its own merits.
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Old 08-03-2016, 10:28 AM   #126
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Municipal marinas are a "disgusting waste of tax payer dollars "? Seriously? What do you think of public schools? Parks and playgrounds? Public recreation center and swimming pools? For that matter, what about police and fire fighters?

I would be against municipal marinas if they are in direct competition with privately owned marinas (whose tax dollars are used to build a marina to compete with them), but if there are no private marinas around, municipal marinas bring business to the municipality and give us boaters back a little bit of the tax money we contribute each year.
I'm still amazed how the internet and television and electricity and water and sewage, and especially boating fit into his utopia. Every body of water is supported with public funding and subsidized by non-boaters. Maintaining our waterways is very expensive and far exceeds any fees or taxes paid by users. But that's the way of masked crusaders. It's evil if we don't like it, but the same principles don't apply to things we prefer. There is a word for that....I think everyone here knows that word.
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Old 08-03-2016, 11:32 AM   #127
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I think the cruisers who are so much in support of these "free" information aides should belly up and pay for it themselves. I'm sure Jeffrey could look at his books and set a pay-for-play fee that would offset all of his advertising receipts....and he says it's not about the money anyway. Then you wouldn't be taxing the rest of us, and non-users will respect you for stepping up. Maybe you'd like to lead the effort to get Jeffrey to transition the system?.
Crowd-sourced sites (Tripadvisor, ActiveCaptain, etc.) and other internet resource sites (Kayak, hotels.com, Amazon, etc.) have certainly wrecked the business models of many of the traditional providers (remember Circuit City? My neighbor WAS a travel agent. I suppose Fodor's hates tripadvisor.). Do these sites allocate costs more or less fairly than the traditional methods? Who knows. There were always suspicions that travel writers were "comp'ed," or more, by the hotels, etc. they recommended. Maybe if everyone makes their marina reservations online, the marinas can reduce staff and prices.

But anybody who thinks these sites haven't increased the overall efficiency of the economy isn't paying attention, and we all benefit in immeasurable ways from that. There can never be too much information.

Are cash purchasers subsidizing my use of credit cards? I suppose so, to some extent (at least in the US. In many other countries, discounts are offered for cash payments, and that may be coming in the US, as well, with some recent law changes). Tough.

Most ticket sales sites charge a "convenience" fee. Marinas could do that too, and I suppose make semi happy (maybe not). The market will sort that out.
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Old 08-03-2016, 11:48 AM   #128
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Municipal marinas are a "disgusting waste of tax payer dollars "? Seriously? What do you think of public schools? Parks and playgrounds? Public recreation center and swimming pools? For that matter, what about police and fire fighters?

I would be against municipal marinas if they are in direct competition with privately owned marinas (whose tax dollars are used to build a marina to compete with them), but if there are no private marinas around, municipal marinas bring business to the municipality and give us boaters back a little bit of the tax money we contribute each year.
To clarify I was referencing the grand, spanking new sites that fryedaze was referring to. Every one of them replaced an existing, perfectly adequate municipal facility. A lot of boaters liked the old better than the congested and in some cases, dangerous monstrosities that replaced them. (Still do where they're available). The state of Michigan paid for very high dollar replacement facilities that stand empty most of the boating season. Some were given grants after the boating industry was taking a nose dive. I'm a huge proponent of municipal marinas, but this was a colossal error.

Some of the replacement marinas were, in fact, built in competition with commercial facilities. A couple of others were applying for grants where there are excellent...and underutilized commercial facilities. Why were/are the commercial facilities underutilized? Because the cheap skate boater segment picks the older, less expensive, adequate muni every time.
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Old 08-03-2016, 03:45 PM   #129
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To clarify I was referencing the grand, spanking new sites that fryedaze was referring to. Every one of them replaced an existing, perfectly adequate municipal facility. A lot of boaters liked the old better than the congested and in some cases, dangerous monstrosities that replaced them. (Still do where they're available). The state of Michigan paid for very high dollar replacement facilities that stand empty most of the boating season. Some were given grants after the boating industry was taking a nose dive. I'm a huge proponent of municipal marinas, but this was a colossal error.

Some of the replacement marinas were, in fact, built in competition with commercial facilities. A couple of others were applying for grants where there are excellent...and underutilized commercial facilities. Why were/are the commercial facilities underutilized? Because the cheap skate boater segment picks the older, less expensive, adequate muni every time.
You have a vote in your municipality. The only other vote you have is with your wallet.
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Old 08-03-2016, 03:59 PM   #130
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The state of Michigan paid for very high dollar replacement facilities that stand empty most of the boating season. Some were given grants after the boating industry was taking a nose dive.
The state of Michigan is a good example of what NOT to do with marinas. We visited many of them on our travels through Lake Huron and Lake Michigan.

The state over-collected marine fuel tax over many years. Through a class action lawsuit, the state was forced to return the money. But how to do that? So they provided money for the inlets and marinas at many towns along the coastline. The mistake they made was forcing some requirements by accepting the money. The worst requirement was that the state got to price-fix the marina slip rates. So the rates are pretty good - $1/foot when we were there - but they totally removed the incentive for one marina to be better than another. If they provided exceptional service, it didn't matter - it was still $1/foot. So many provide poor service.

The worst marina experience I've had was in Michigan. It was captured on video so there was no he-said/she-said about what happened (thank you Go-Pro). I went to their town hall to show the video to the person in charge of the town facilities. They watched, said "sorry", and told me how overworked the marina manager was. "Those things happen from time to time."

Related to this thread, the only way to reserve a slip and some of the marinas is online with the state's marina reservation system. It was a good 10 years out of date in technology.

I wish I had gone on the Wisconsin side...
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Old 08-03-2016, 04:11 PM   #131
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I wish I had gone on the Wisconsin side...
I just checked and we used AC to select every marina we're staying at on Lake Superior. Not a single one is an AC advertiser. It's a service paid for by many advertisers, but these marinas are benefiting for free. I also doubt any of them have a complaint.
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Old 08-03-2016, 04:20 PM   #132
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I just checked and we used AC to select every marina we're staying at on Lake Superior. Not a single one is an AC advertiser. It's a service paid for by many advertisers, but these marinas are benefiting for free. I also doubt any of them have a complaint.
Actually, there are coded messages in the data as you're viewing it. We actually pushed you to the marinas you thought you were selecting. To completely throw everyone off the trail, we only used money received from the Caribbean for it since they'd never think to even look at Lake Superior.

I've personally had conversations with the owners of noonsite. So if we acquired them, is it possible the world economies would collapse because of the infinite loop of money laundering created?
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Old 08-03-2016, 05:56 PM   #133
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Actually, there are coded messages in the data as you're viewing it. We actually pushed you to the marinas you thought you were selecting. To completely throw everyone off the trail, we only used money received from the Caribbean for it since they'd never think to even look at Lake Superior.

I've personally had conversations with the owners of noonsite. So if we acquired them, is it possible the world economies would collapse because of the infinite loop of money laundering created?


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Old 08-04-2016, 06:58 AM   #134
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Show me how you pay. Give me just one example in real life.

When I buy a new Toyota, I am not just paying for the car, I am paying for the advertising that convinced me to buy a Toyota. I have no idea what percentage of the purchase price that is, but it's in there somewhere. Same thing for buying GEICO insurance, toothpaste or whatever.
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Old 08-04-2016, 07:12 AM   #135
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I'm still amazed how the internet and television and electricity and water and sewage, and especially boating fit into his utopia. Every body of water is supported with public funding and subsidized by non-boaters. Maintaining our waterways is very expensive and far exceeds any fees or taxes paid by users. But that's the way of masked crusaders. It's evil if we don't like it, but the same principles don't apply to things we prefer. There is a word for that....I think everyone here knows that word.
Public schools, parks and playgrounds, recreation center and swimming pools are paid for with public funding but not used by everyone. Where is the difference? I remember where I used to live 1% of every school construction cost had to be used for "artwork" (statues, paintings, etc.) What sort of BS is that? I deserve my municipal marina.

When we cruise, we leave $$ with the marina owner and $$ with the restaurants and shops in the town. Sadly, many of the small towns along the waterways have to rely on tourism for their existence.
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Old 08-04-2016, 07:17 AM   #136
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Not exactly clear on the product buying comparison for either side of the discussion. Sure, pure advertising costs money, but higher sales should offset those costs...I am no businessman, but isn't that the concept?

If Toyota started focusing more on Internet ads, could you without a doubt say that increased costs to all Toyota owners without knowing what they are spending in other areas of even just advertising? If that internet site also collected reviews of dealerships that might eliminate/lessen customers satisfaction surveys or internal management reviews...could you be certain whether use of the internet site actually increased or decreased Toyota costs?

How can anyone be so sure one tiny portion of operating costs within a business automatically increases costs?
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Old 08-04-2016, 08:33 AM   #137
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............... How can anyone be so sure one tiny portion of operating costs within a business automatically increases costs?
Any cost is a cost and unless the business reduces one cost to offset the increase in the other cost, operating costs increase.

That increase has to come out of the profits or be paid by the customers.

That said, if the increased business cost brings more customers or better customers, it's worth it to the business. That is how the increased cost is paid for.
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Old 08-04-2016, 08:38 AM   #138
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Any cost is a cost and unless the business reduces one cost to offset the increase in the other cost, operating costs increase.

That increase has to come out of the profits or be paid by the customers.

That said, if the increased business cost brings more customers or better customers, it's worth it to the business. That is how the increased cost is paid for.
Not necessarily...I do know that.

Budgets are often shifted, not necessarily increased.

Otherwise the cost of everything in life would have only gone up.
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Old 08-04-2016, 05:18 PM   #139
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Some day when we all have "lost dog" transponder chips injected into us linked to our mandatory payment accounts, everything will be more fairly paid for and therefore better. Or will it be worse?
Still waiting for the "mob" to setup a phoney EZ Pass transponder on a NJ Turnpike overpass one day.
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Old 08-04-2016, 06:14 PM   #140
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If a certain fried chicken selling presidential candidate had won the nomination and the presidency, all the marinas would have been taken over by the government and all the rates would be the same - much higher because of the new "rich people" taxes.


"Free enterprise" forces them to compete with each other and the boater wins.
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