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Old 06-02-2014, 11:31 AM   #121
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Greetings,
Mr. D. Good post. "...but apparently some need the reminder" EXACTLY! You can't fix stupid but you can make it costly enough to perhaps think, even out of fear. As has been mentioned, the "smart" boors dump at night when, given enough time, any dyes and waste will have dissipated. That's why I'm advocating fluorescent/luminescent dyes if there is such a thing. I'm thinking it would be a great source of amusement those responsible boaters when the "perp" gets hung out to dry. I know I'd enjoy it.
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:46 AM   #122
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make enough noise about the issue...which is not good but debatably a problem all things considered except good taste...and the non boaters will require radioactive tablets so no one can hide their dumping...

be careful what you wish for...

we have all seen it way too much...often the political solution becomes a bigger issue than the problem.
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:57 AM   #123
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You can't fix stupid but you can make it costly enough to perhaps think, even out of fear.
Actually, in a way, you can fix stupid; through training and education.

Mandatory courses for the privilege of owning or operating a boat might go a long way in creating a more civilized boating society.

Set an expectation of what is proper and why it is proper, instead of a trying to avoid a fine from them damn guys in the gubberment.
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:08 PM   #124
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I always love broad statements like these!... who says the earth is overpopulated? .. who set the number? Are most populations going up.. sure.. It has been that way through most of history.

Not to beat you up too bad on this Art, but if you feel so strongly about this should you not be on a sailboat vs. a greenhouse gas, earth killing powerboat?

There are so many groups that try to stop so called "man made" environmental issues .. the one thta gets to me on a daily basis is "man made" erosion here in the PNW... we now have to build back further from the bluff front waterfront so we don't cause bluff erosion.. the irony is that ALL of Puget Sound is a erosion area that started a bazillion years ago after the last ice age (which I am sure some some enviro group blames on the few humans that were here then!)

On a side note, I am a TOTAL ADVOCATE of some of the things we do to protect the environment.. I recycle all plastics, don't dump used oil, don't drive old beater polluting cars.. don't pump oily bilge water.. These all make sense

HOLLYWOOD
Thank you!!!

Humans are just as much a part of nature ans any other species.
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:47 PM   #125
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To see the effects of raw sewage, and of humans, look no further than my home state of North Carolina, the largest producer of hogs in the country. In 1995, 25 million gallons of hog waste spilled into the New River (upriver from Camp Lejeune and Sneads Ferry). 10-15 miles of the New River became pretty much lifeless, plant and fish, pretty massive fish kills, couldn't take oysters around Sneads Ferry for two seasons.. The farm owner had no permits or anything. He was fined and hit for clean up costs in the grand total of $104,000. In one county in NC, Duplin, hogs produce more waste than the NYC sewage system! The industry fights any regulation at all and is pretty successful at having little to no meaningful regulation at the federal and state levels.

The big guys can defeat attempts at regulation and our industry, who is, at best, such a minuscule piece of the problem as to have virtually no effect, bear the brunt of political "feel-good" regulation.

Make no mistake, I am in favor on not dumping, pretty much at all, anywhere, except well at sea. But I would like to see the feds and states put as much effort into solving the real, material issues causing the problem and not use the recreational boating industry as a scapegoat.
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:23 PM   #126
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I always love broad statements like these!... who says the earth is overpopulated? .. who set the number? Are most populations going up.. sure.. It has been that way through most of history.

Not to beat you up too bad on this Art, but if you feel so strongly about this should you not be on a sailboat vs. a greenhouse gas, earth killing powerboat?

There are so many groups that try to stop so called "man made" environmental issues .. the one thta gets to me on a daily basis is "man made" erosion here in the PNW... we now have to build back further from the bluff front waterfront so we don't cause bluff erosion.. the irony is that ALL of Puget Sound is a erosion area that started a bazillion years ago after the last ice age (which I am sure some some enviro group blames on the few humans that were here then!)

On a side note, I am a TOTAL ADVOCATE of some of the things we do to protect the environment.. I recycle all plastics, don't dump used oil, don't drive old beater polluting cars.. don't pump oily bilge water.. These all make sense

HOLLYWOOD
HOLLYWOOD: Thanks for your consideration!

Worry not; you can't beat me up on this – I stand firm, i.e. Truth is Truth! And, I also do not mean to nor want to beat you up on this either!!

But - - > This global situation is as it is... and... This is how I see it:

Those who think global scale life support operations will remain in OK conditions throughout this eco-systemic planet earth, in reference to occurred, ongoing, and worsening ecosystemic caused debilitations via severely incorrect anthropogenic actions, have blinders on.

Portions of or the entirety of atmosphere, oceans, many lakes and rivers are approaching tipping points (e.g. disastrous alterations in their general composition and life support systems) ... they are entering untenable and potentially unsolvable interactive groups of crisis levels.

It is up to humans only to abate, resolve, redirect, improve upon, filter, or stop our anthropogenic actions that will too soon (probably before close of 21st Century) change this world’s ecosystem into states of worse than livable conditions.

This Global Clean-Up Agenda can create and establish enormously profitable industries and new businesses, with new employment opportunities throughout many world sections.

There’s nothing wrong with being green – and – there can become oodles of profit in it too!

Happy Life Daze! - Art
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:58 AM   #127
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I would like to ask some questions to those who dump at the three mile zone, If you have easy access to a pump out station, why do you pump at sea ? is it because you can ? is it because you are lazy ? Is it because you don't care ? I am no tree hugger, pump out seems to be the right choice when available.
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Old 06-04-2014, 01:08 AM   #128
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For what it's worth, the SF estuarian waters are much cleaner (but saltier) now than fifty years ago.



(Harbor seal under seagull attack.)
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Old 06-04-2014, 01:32 AM   #129
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I would like to ask some questions to those who dump at the three mile zone, If you have easy access to a pump out station, why do you pump at sea ? is it because you can ? is it because you are lazy ? Is it because you don't care ? I am no tree hugger, pump out seems to be the right choice when available.
the same laws that say you cannot pump inside the three my limits says that you can pump outside the limit. apparently somebody in our wise government figured out that dumping 30 gallons of poo outside in three mile limit isn't any big deal. if you go 3 miles off the coast of California the next to dirt is 5000 miles to the west... the Pacific is a big body of water it can handle it. it's all about a question of density ....inside a small bay dumping untreated sewage is a really bad idea of the ocean it's not an issue.
In the 20,000 + miles of offshore voyaging I've done I don't know anybody that goes out there it doesn't dump their holding tank.
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Old 06-04-2014, 01:39 AM   #130
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I'm OK dumping a few bits if macerated poop once a year when I know the cruise ship that just passed me dumped a tad more on its 20th trip to Alaska this summer...

The only time we've had any high e coli counts was when our local waste treatment facility backed up several years ago.

The ocean is big. Deep too.
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:00 AM   #131
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I would like to ask some questions to those who dump at the three mile zone, If you have easy access to a pump out station, why do you pump at sea ? is it because you can ? is it because you are lazy ? Is it because you don't care ? I am no tree hugger, pump out seems to be the right choice when available.
We have MSD's so macerate and treat our sewage prior to disposing. So it's none of your answers above. We save others having to process and transfer our sewage. And we help not overburden the pump out stations. Otherwise we have never dumped out waste.
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:06 AM   #132
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... And we help not overburden the pump out stations. ...
Have yet to see pump-out stations being overworked.
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:40 AM   #133
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Have yet to see pump-out stations being overworked.
You haven't seen some of the small ones at some marinas on the East Coast. In some areas there is still a shortage of stations and the equipment in use is undersized. Also some marinas only have pump out at the fuel pumps and have limited dock space there.

Still, I answered the question. We use pump out if in a harbor, we use MSD when outside three miles. Our MSD meets all US and IMO MEPC standards. We are putting treated sewage in the water just as municipalities do. Even though in most areas it is legal for us to discharge close to shore, we choose not to both as a courtesy to other boaters and because an observer doesn't know it's treated.
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:42 AM   #134
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Pumpout Stations in California
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Old 06-04-2014, 03:16 AM   #135
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I've yet to boat in California. That doesn't happen until later this year. California was probably a bit ahead of some states in this regard. Florida has more facilities than most states on the East coast.
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Old 06-04-2014, 03:23 AM   #136
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I've yet to boat in California. That doesn't happen until later this year. ...
Will you pass through THE CANAL? It's a wondrous engineering feat.

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Old 06-04-2014, 03:41 AM   #137
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Will you pass through THE CANAL? It's a wondrous engineering feat.
Yes, we will. Probably be on the west coast until January or so and then head south toward the canal. At the moment in Washington and headed to Alaska within a week. After Alaska, a week or so visiting Victoria and Vancouver. Then back down the coast, a short trip to Portland. A couple of intermediate trips home, then head through Oregon for some time in California. Visiting a lot of areas we've never visited by land or water. Well, unless you count flying through airports. Not just a few new states but some new countries for us too.

Yes, Canal not only a wondrous feat but the only decent way to get home too.
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Old 06-04-2014, 06:05 AM   #138
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Will you pass through THE CANAL? It's a wondrous engineering feat.


BUT does it have pump out stations?
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Old 06-04-2014, 06:46 AM   #139
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I guess it's all about perception of what sewage is all about.

Some people here think that using the pump out station is so gross they hardly do it themselves.

There's other people like me who probably just roll up their sleeves, grab a screwdriver to change a sewage line macercator without a second thought.

Some people don't even like public bathrooms and others are comfortable digging and filling a camp slit trench.

Of all the things that make it into the ocean...especially municiplal sewage and all the stuff people flush down toilets...what comes out of boats doesn't bother me in the slightest.

As long as people follow the three mile rule and use type I or II treatment inside of that. I could care less.

I even think there are many NDZs that should go back to allowing type I and II treatment, like most of Coastal North Carolina (maybe certain spots should stay but much of it is flushed well enough by tides)

I'm not sure some people here realize how few pumpot stations there are in some parts of the ACIW. Heck, leave Savannah southbound and there's a only a couple marinas for almost 80 miles sprinkled about and many are more fish camp than marina. Finding a working pumpout can be a chore and then finding it manned or someone on duty that knows how to use it. There are marinas with "slip holder only" policies. There are marinas that charge pretty high rates such as $1/gallon.

So for some going out to the three mile line isn't necessarily lazy...it's a must if they don't want to dump illegally. Only until two summers ago was there a working and usually available pumpout within 10 miles of my marina in southern NJ and it's a huge boating area.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:22 AM   #140
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...

The big guys can defeat attempts at regulation and our industry, who is, at best, such a minuscule piece of the problem as to have virtually no effect, bear the brunt of political "feel-good" regulation.

Make no mistake, I am in favor on not dumping, pretty much at all, anywhere, except well at sea. But I would like to see the feds and states put as much effort into solving the real, material issues causing the problem and not use the recreational boating industry as a scapegoat.
Very well said.

We are rapidly becoming a country, even world, of feel good regulation.

Just look at fishing and TSA to name a few caused by ever more pandering politicians.

No wonder some just want to get on their boat and go around the world.
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