Mandatory Boat Safety Course for Boating in NY - Including Transients

[Xsbank]

The more learnin’ the better! Everyone should be recertified regularly. The ignorance displayed every time I go boating is appalling. Radio procedure! Makes it look like you buy a boat, you get a lobotomy. Or maybe you have to like watching daytime tv before you are allowed to buy a boat. Maybe if we weren’t so ignorant as a group we wouldn’t be treated as badly and be the legislative target that we have become.

Rules of the road? Every day somebody that I encounter doesn’t know them.
Radio work is pathetic, poor Coast Guard radio has to listen to our mindless drivel on 16 all day long.
Wakes - everyone has one, do you care about what yours is doing?
Do you know what that buoy/channel marker is for?
Do you know why there is a lock on your poop tank?
Your sailboat has a motor, it needs fuel and maintenance - the concept is not that difficult, especially as you don’t know what the sails are for.
The pfd is to be worn, not stuffed under the seat. If a child falls off the boat, how likely is a 3 year old to stay on top of the water? If yours is on, how will you retrieve the child? If you take yours off, you will die.

Education is essential, you need to know how to perform certain tasks without looking in the book. At least know which book.

Opinions?

 

[Portage_Bay]

In my humble opinion, any argument against getting a license for fear of greater liability is totally bogus. You don't get to end it with "nuff said" either as you keep pushing this argument. Now, common sense says you hold people with greater experience and greater training to a higher expectation than a person out for their first day of boating. However, the law, the rules of the water, doesn't change. I do personally hold myself to a very high standard, but not because of the license I hold, because I have had the training and experience to know the right thing to do and to take captaining seriously.

Now, a licensed individual has one additional factor and that is the risk of suspension or loss of license. Even that is no reason to not get a license, in my opinion. Cost and time of education is probably the number one reason people choose not to get a license. It's expensive, although not when looking at the total expenses of boating. It also requires time, both sea time and classroom time.

Please go back and review my two posts. I did not say don't get a license. I did not advise against getting a license. I did say in post # 18 "Do keep in mind that the holder of a USCG credential will be held to a higher standard in the event of collision / casualty etc than a non licensed recreational boater." How you interpret that as "Don't get a license" is beyond me.

Further I said in post # 28 "And I would never suggest anyone qualified not get a license, far from it, the training and knowledge gained in preparing for the exam is well worth the time and effort. I am cautioning those seeking to become licensed to be prepared to accept the full responsibility of holding that license." How you interpret that is pushing the argument against getting a license is even more difficult to understand.

As for my statement "Nuff said". I can understand you may have misinterpreted that statement. You may have taken it as my declaration as the final authority and I won't listen to further discussion. Let me clarify. I meant I won't normally rebut statements or opinions counter to my own on an internet forum because I don't want to get into a pissing match. Looks like I overstepped my own self imposed bounds and here we are.....

 

[TDunn]

It s quite easy to get a state boater education card on line. I live in Maine, but visit Washington periodically where I go out boating with friends. So I got a Washington state card even though I am old enough to be exempt. The on line procedure took a few hours on a snowy winter evening. I sent them my money and they sent me a card even though I don't live in Washington.


Here in Maine we have no boater ed requirements except that kids under 16 are limited to 10 hp and can't drive a PWC. 16 and 17 year olds can only run a PWC if they have passed an approved test/course. Once you are 18 it is a free for all. I can't imagine more requirements for boaters here in Maine unless there was an exemption for lobster fishers.

 

[FF]

I wonder how NY views an expired USCG license?

MY 100T endorsement ticket expired about 1975 , never bothered to renew it.

So cruising up the East River into LI Sound is now illegal?

 

[psneeld]

Because the safety course certificates don't usually expire, I think an expired USCG incense is still acceptable.


The language usually just says "license"...not "current license" or similar.

 

[High Wire]

I wonder how NY views an expired USCG license?

MY 100T endorsement ticket expired about 1975 , never bothered to renew it.

So cruising up the East River into LI Sound is now illegal?

They might accept it during a grandfather period, if they put one in the rule. After that all bets are off.

 

[South of Heaven]

Xsbank: I agree. People have no clue out there. Its scary.

 

[psneeld]

I will take a clueless boater over an arrogant one every time .....

 

[rgano]

Another way to get more money.
If the state insists, I think it should apply EVERYONE afloat be it a powered water craft, sailboat, paddle board and canoes and anyone using a flotation device.

Since I firmly believe in required safety training, I don't see it as a money grab by NY since the law allows boaters to flash the LEOs any old equivalent safety training certificate and go on their merry way. I have a copy of my unlimited tonnage master upon oceans certificate hanging up which has seemed to satisfy LEOs to this point.

And to the comment that it does not apply to sailboats, I'll bet a dollar that when a NY LEO boards a big Pearson sailboat under sail that he considers the big hunk of steel in the ER to qualify it as a power driven vessel. But even so, I don't think the sailing pram operator should get off because they get in the way of other vessels and should know the rules both vessels have to obey.

 

[Chrisjs]

Hard to say a short on-line course will not help, but I think the benefit is marginal in terms of helping ensure safety (of others). Having taken the MA USCG Auxiliary course about 40 years ago ( several nights, as I recall) it did very little to prepare one to be safe at sea. The course was definitely helpful. So, I am not suggesting it was not worth the time, rather that safety is a frame of mind and experience, and hard to teach unless the individual has put in some real time on a vessel - even a smaller one. The typical boating accidents one hears about are related to excess speed and alcohol, just like auto accidents. I am not discounting fires, extreme weather, or mechanical issues, but again the only real learning curve is experience. So, rather than solving a safety problem I think these short mandated courses are more like another boater tax.

 

[rgano]

They might accept it during a grandfather period, if they put one in the rule. After that all bets are off.

Since state requirements for boating safety education are so pitifully minimal, any USCG license will be acceptable as proof of safety education no matter how old the license.

 

[rgano]

So I am completely legal operating my documented boat in my home state of NC. No requirement here for me to take some boating safety course of any type.

Say I go up to Maine next summer. Going through the NE states now I am illegal?

Is there not some sort of reciprocity like there is for auto driver's licenses?

Go take the half-day boater safety course at the USCG AUx or what used to be the US Power Squadron, and you will be fine.

 

[ben2go]

Go take the half-day boater safety course at the USCG AUx or what used to be the US Power Squadron, and you will be fine.

Thanks. I was just about to ask that question because I am planning to take those and possibly go for a full captain license.

 

[OldDan1943]

Years ago, I spent 2 weeks at the Chapman school. I took and passed the professional course which satisfied a Captain's license IF I got the required sea time.
I opted not to get the sea time for a few reasons, which only make sense to me.
I do carry a reduce copy of my certificate of graduation in my wallet. I do hope that will satisfy the 'license checking people'. If not, I guess I am screwed again.

 

[rgano]

I have often spoken out about this business of getting a USCG license if you are not in professional need of same. Some skippers just want to have one for an ego trip while one or two have told me they wanted the education they got while pursuing the license. For god's sake, please leave the overburdened USCG licensing people alone to do their job of policing the licensing system as it was designed - for professionals. By all means get whatever higher level of nautical education you want. You can even go and pay a professional level school to take their courses; they would enjoy the income. When you are done, frame your school certificates on board. I guarantee you I would ooh and aah over them and congratulate you on your achievements and interest. If you can't get a TWIC card, why bother the USCG for a licensing exam and all the bother they have to go through to give it to you?

 

[rgano]

Years ago, I spent 2 weeks at the Chapman school. I took and passed the professional course which satisfied a Captain's license IF I got the required sea time.
I opted not to get the sea time for a few reasons, which only make sense to me.
I do carry a reduce copy of my certificate of graduation in my wallet. I do hope that will satisfy the 'license checking people'. If not, I guess I am screwed again.

I will pay your fine if it does not.

 

[Capitaine R]

I have a 100gt license with an assistance towing certificate which at this point in my career I don't utilize. But the hope is to pick up a few delivery jobs when I retire, which I hope will be in only a few years. I went for the license early just to make sure I had it when needed.
I know technically you don't have to have a license to do deliveries, but I wouldn't hire a person without one.

 

[rgano]

I would agree that having a 100T USCG is a good idea if you are in the delivery bidness because in reality, you are a professional. USCG should recognize that business because it is BIG.

 

[rgano]

I agree that the short course boating safety courses can be useless unless followed by the proper mindset every time the ex-student ventures out afloat. It's the post-graduate time spent wisely which inculcates the safety afloat into the boating experience, but we have to start some place. Having taught the loooong course, the shortened course, and the half-day joke courses, I personally wish that the approved safety courses for all states spanned a minimum of five 2-3 hour sessions to let it sink in along with a more difficult open-book exam at the end.

 

[OldDan1943]

I will pay your fine if it does not.

Please send a signed, blank check, just in case.
I will fill in the amount as necessary. LOL

 

[psneeld]

Please send a signed, blank check, just in case.
I will fill in the amount as necessary. LOL

The law usually says license as an alternative....it doesn't say course...but the LEO might assume or cut you slack.


I guess you could compare it to a officer asking for your license vs. high school safe driving diploma

 

[dhays]

Education is essential, you need to know how to perform certain tasks without looking in the book. At least know which book.



Opinions?

Yeah, I agree completely.

 

[dhays]

It s quite easy to get a state boater education card on line. I live in Maine, but visit Washington periodically where I go out boating with friends. So I got a Washington state card even though I am old enough to be exempt. The on line procedure took a few hours on a snowy winter evening. I sent them my money and they sent me a card even though I don't live in Washington.

I agree, the WA boaters card is quite easy to get. Essentially, it is just a review of basic boating safety, and WA and Federal laws. While there are a lot of vendors trying to sell courses and the exam, BoatUS offers it for free. Anyone here could simply read through the material once, take the online test, and pass easily. Most here could do it without reading the material first. A new boater, much like a new driver, may have to actually pay attention to what they are reading in order to pass the exam.

Once you have that certificate showing you passed the test (again, free from BoatUS Foundation) then you pay WA state $10.00 and they send you your lifetime boaters card.

I have seen folks opine that it is just another attempt for the state to get money out boaters. In WA State, that is truly a laughable idea. Compare that $10 fee for a lifetime boaters card to the $24 the state charges for a Drivers License Learner’s Permit that expires in a year. The state isn’t making money off this program but simply trying to address the same thing we see everyday out on the water, ignorant boaters. Sure, folks can pass that test once and still remain, or become ignorant. Still, in my opinion, it is better than nothing.

 

[Gdavid]

The transient boater who is sufficiently conscious of this new requirement is the least concern of local authorities. If a boater passing through is doing their homework to research their route, plan which inlets they plan to use for plans A & B & C, monitoring weather, and keeping up with local regulations is running a pretty safe operation to begin with and is probably unlikely to be boarded in the first place.


The dangerous operators will won't be phased by this law, they will be ignorant of both safety requirements and the existence of this law. It will be just one more thing to write them up on.

 

[BandB]

I have often spoken out about this business of getting a USCG license if you are not in professional need of same. Some skippers just want to have one for an ego trip while one or two have told me they wanted the education they got while pursuing the license. For god's sake, please leave the overburdened USCG licensing people alone to do their job of policing the licensing system as it was designed - for professionals. By all means get whatever higher level of nautical education you want. You can even go and pay a professional level school to take their courses; they would enjoy the income. When you are done, frame your school certificates on board. I guarantee you I would ooh and aah over them and congratulate you on your achievements and interest. If you can't get a TWIC card, why bother the USCG for a licensing exam and all the bother they have to go through to give it to you?

Then you probably disapprove of my wife and I having licenses and the fact we've taxed the USCG licensing with all the upgrades plus STCW endorsements. I don't know what you mean by "can't get a TWIC card" as they're required and not difficult to get. We consider ourselves professionals, even if you don't. We don't captain for pay. We are, and in the future will be, occasionally in situations where our licenses are needed, although we will typically have others with licenses aboard too.

You're more than entitled to your opinion and your rant. I hope you respect that we're entitled to have our licenses as we will continue to do so, probably for two or three more decades. We don't do it for recognition or ego. We spend the majority of our time on boats and want to be credentialed professionals. Fortunately, the USCG representatives we've spoken to and met don't share your views, or at least hid them, as they complimented us. We've spent the time, effort, and money to merit our licenses.

I might also comment that people in many fields have licenses they don't use on a daily basis and that aren't legally required for them. I know lawyers, accountants, teachers, nurses and others who don't practice those professions regularly. One thing all those licenses do hold in common with USCG licensing is the difficulty of regaining them if they're allowed to lapse for years. My wife doesn't actively teach and, when she does, doesn't do it for pay, but she maintains her certifications.

 

[OldDan1943]

The law usually says license as an alternative....it doesn't say course...but the LEO might assume or cut you slack.

I guess you could compare it to a officer asking for your license vs. high school safe driving diploma

The Chapman professional course was a 2 week in length, 8 hours a day, including boat handling. We, the class, took the USCG captain's exam and I passed. The only reason I am not a captain is because I do not have a log indicating I have the required sea time.
I had captains offer to fill out my log, I thanked them and turned it down.

If you wish to equate what I accomplished to a high school safe driving diploma, that is your decision.
I would encourage you to take the Chapman's professional level course if for no other reason than to tell me, it is like driver's ed.

You present your safe boater card doesn't mean you are safe boater.
With the on-line certification, one can read the question, go look for the answers and then return to the exam with the correct answers.
I am not belittling the on-line certification, it is better than nothing.
I will admit, I have forgotten more than a few things including determining ones latitude with a sextant.
I am open to someone coming to my boat and instructing me.
Yup, I have my very own sextant too.

Psneeld, perhaps I am being too sensitive to the point when I am called Captain, I immediately correct them by saying, I do not hold a Captain's license, I just drive the boat.
Holding a Captain's license, to me, is something sacred and the title of Captain is only for those who earned and deserve it.

 

[rgano]

Dear BandB,
You went round Robin Hood's barn telling me I might disapprove of your need for a license and then that you need it sometimes professionally. If you need it ANY time, I have ZERO argument with anybody having a license, and I do not consider that you have wasted anybody's time. I respect your decision AND your license. Are we good?

Just as a slight aside, my Unlimited Tonnage License expired long ago when I decided not to renew it because I was no longer going to sea professionally and would have been an added admin burden on all concerned. Oddly enough, several years after my Navy career and while my Unlimited License was still active, the Navy began letting me drive about fifty of its newest destroyers around in circles in the Tongue of the Ocean until I retired from that job in 2102 without ever a glance at ANY professional documentation. They relied on professional reputation and demonstrated skill to each commanding officer, much like the cachet delivery skippers have in their world. Were I to suddenly change my mind and want my license back, it would cost half the value of my boat and a loooong time effort; so I had to be sure. I also have a pilot's license to fly an airplane and would have to undergo a physical and retraining to be let loose, but I don't do that anymore either, and it costs the gummint nothing for me to have the piece of paper saying I am only a physical and a flight review away from flying (scary thought). Check it out on the FAA website.

 

[BandB]

Dear BandB,
You went round Robin Hood's barn telling me I might disapprove of your need for a license and then that you need it sometimes professionally. If you need it ANY time, I have ZERO argument with anybody having a license, and I do not consider that you have wasted anybody's time. I respect your decision AND your license. Are we good?

Just as a slight aside, my Unlimited Tonnage License expired long ago when I decided not to renew it because I was no longer going to sea professionally and would have been an added admin burden on all concerned. Oddly enough, several years after my Navy career and while my Unlimited License was still active, the Navy began letting me drive about fifty of its newest destroyers around in circles in the Tongue of the Ocean until I retired from that job in 2102 without ever a glance at ANY professional documentation. They relied on professional reputation and demonstrated skill to each commanding officer, much like the cachet delivery skippers have in their world. Were I to suddenly change my mind and want my license back, it would cost half the value of my boat and a loooong time effort; so I had to be sure. I also have a pilot's license to fly an airplane and would have to undergo a physical and retraining to be let loose, but I don't do that anymore either, and it costs the gummint nothing for me to have the piece of paper saying I am only a physical and a flight review away from flying (scary thought). Check it out on the FAA website.

I think you greatly overestimate the work of licensing, but we're fine. I do think it's a high burden in what you'd have to go through to regain your license, which is why I encourage people to maintain licenses. Of course there's a cost to doing that too.

As to the state licensing, I'm all for it, but it's another place I sure wish we had one uniform license and rules across all states.

 

[rgano]

Individually, a minor issue, but nationwide.... not so sure.

As in so many thousands of issues which vary state-to-state, like the insurance industry, sales taxes, etc, etc, boating education laws probably fall into the enumerated powers detailed in our Constitution. Some states got shut down in 1865 when they went a little too far with this concept, namely that slavery was OK.

 

[markpierce]

I assume any boat operator is either asleep, distracted, drunk or ignorant unless otherwise demonstrated.