Major damage :(

[ghost]

I will take Doug good advice and will paint a big BLOCK HERE on the hull under each bulkhead so this does not occur never again. Was wondering if having a full length beam under the keel supported by blocks would be a good idea.

L

I've been through damages caused by improper haul techniques. My advice:

1.) File with your insurer.

2.) Transition as much forms of communication as you can to written. You might have a good relationship with the owner now, but when "others" take over, you will regret having undocumented conversations.

3.) If you do have a personal conversation (which you should avoid), immediately after keep a diary and religiously fill out the date/time/person and a summary of what was discussed. Note any word for word quotes, in quotes.

Example: The lady at the counter who said to me "If I had been working that day this would not have happened" was worth an increase in payout of about $8K.

4.) It's not an absolute, but getting an independent party to do the repair, can alleviate conflicts of interest.

As others have noted, the time to repair will be less than the time to haggle. Anything you can do to separate the two things will help you get back in the waters sooner.

5.) Lastly, beware of posting details on this forum. "Next time I'll <fill in the blank> would be a nice gem to point out how you feel this was your fault, even if it wasn't. Be careful about what and where you say things as they may be taken more literal than you intended.

 

[Lou_tribal]

I've been through damages caused by improper haul techniques. My advice:

1.) File with your insurer.

2.) Transition as much forms of communication as you can to written. You might have a good relationship with the owner now, but when "others" take over, you will regret having undocumented conversations.

3.) If you do have a personal conversation (which you should avoid), immediately after keep a diary and religiously fill out the date/time/person and a summary of what was discussed. Note any word for word quotes, in quotes.

Example: The lady at the counter who said to me "If I had been working that day this would not have happened" was worth an increase in payout of about $8K.

4.) It's not an absolute, but getting an independent party to do the repair, can alleviate conflicts of interest.

As others have noted, the time to repair will be less than the time to haggle. Anything you can do to separate the two things will help you get back in the waters sooner.

5.) Lastly, beware of posting details on this forum. "Next time I'll <fill in the blank> would be a nice gem to point out how you feel this was your fault, even if it wasn't. Be careful about what and where you say things as they may be taken more literal than you intended.

Thank you for your advices.
Point 1 to 3 done, I keep record of everything and any conversation that happened was in presence of a third (or more) person. Like when the fiberglass contractor has shown that the boat was not set on ye proper place and between reinforcement.

Point 4 - I will wait for the insurance surveyor to check the damage and base on his judgement independent parties will come in play as I was advised by boatpoker (thank you so much).

Point 5 - I agree but at the same time anything I post is in good faith and based on fact and not on feelings and I like to think (maybe naively) that at the end anything is resolved if people are in good faith.

L

 

[BandB]

Point 5 - I agree but at the same time anything I post is in good faith and based on fact and not on feelings and I like to think (maybe naively) that at the end anything is resolved if people are in good faith.

L

Let's get beyond any good faith imagination. Good faith and the yard already would have had their insurer on site (although betting they don't even have insurance) or would have already talked to you about making repairs and them covering them. That's good faith. They've done none of that so get beyond any naivety regarding them. They were not professional in the work and they haven't been since it happened.

Odds are this will only get uglier. Now still hope for the best.

How near are the people you might use for the repairs? Do they have trailers for boats your size or will you have to get a commercial carrier to move the boat? Be aware of any amounts the current yard might charge you as they can hold up movement until all amounts are paid, even unreasonable charges.

 

[O C Diver]

And we, the boating community, too often encourage and support them by making our choices based on price. While not always true, the low cost provider is often the one not meeting reasonable standards.

This is one of those areas where price probably has little bearing. A substantial amount of yard cost is relative to land property value, labor & equipment cost, and volume. A yard hauling 100 boats a year in Fort Lauderdale is necessarily going to have a higher cost than one on the St Johns river that hauls 1,000 boats a year. To me, you need to watch them haul boats and decide if they are professional and know what they're doing. If you're not familiar enough with hauling boats to make that evaluation, find someone not associated with the boatyard who is.

To me, this is like buying boat fuel. Price has little bearing on the product.

Ted

 

[BandB]

This is one of those areas where price probably has little bearing. A substantial amount of yard cost is relative to land property value, labor & equipment cost, and volume. A yard hauling 100 boats a year in Fort Lauderdale is necessarily going to have a higher cost than one on the St Johns river that hauls 1,000 boats a year. To me, you need to watch them haul boats and decide if they are professional and know what they're doing. If you're not familiar enough with hauling boats to make that evaluation, find someone not associated with the boatyard who is.

To me, this is like buying boat fuel. Price has little bearing on the product.

Ted

I'm not talking price in different areas, but price in the same area.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I'm a little late to the party posting a pic of good blocking, but better late than never.

This boat is 32' LOA and 31K lbs. The yard used 4 blocks, 2 close together under the engines. All wood blocks on concrete jersey barrier blocks to resist things settling into the ground when it rains. 6 stands, 3 on each side.

This is in Anacortes Wa where there are hundreds of boats stored on the hard. Short term storage, long term storage or under repair.

 

[Gmarr]

I will take Doug good advice and will paint a big BLOCK HERE on the hull under each bulkhead so this does not occur never again. Was wondering if having a full length beam under the keel supported by blocks would be a good idea.

L

Don’t you then pick up full or partial liability should anything occur then? My same question would also include if you direct the re-blocking of your current circumstance

 

[C lectric]

Quote: Point 5 - I agree but at the same time anything I post is in good faith and based on fact and not on feelings and I like to think (maybe naively) that at the end anything is resolved if people are in good faith. END QUOTE

Lou, you may well feel this way but they may not. Lots of folk get quite nasty later and BandB has a good point that if they do get nasty and they become aware of the forum they may well use anything you have posted here against you.

I certainly hope that discussions go well but just be a bit carefull.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Quote: Point 5 - I agree but at the same time anything I post is in good faith and based on fact and not on feelings and I like to think (maybe naively) that at the end anything is resolved if people are in good faith. END QUOTE

Lou, you may well feel this way but they may not. Lots of folk get quite nasty later and BandB has a good point that if they do get nasty and they become aware of the forum they may well use anything you have posted here against you.

I certainly hope that discussions go well but just be a bit carefull.

Duly noted
Thank you both to care about me this is something really comforting if this translate my mindset correctly

L

 

[BruceK]

Lou, things should start to move once your insurer`s surveyor gets on the job. It is surprising a yard whose "bread and butter" work includes storing blocked boats each winter could get it so wrong.
Whether you trust them to do the repair is another thing, but if the surveyor issues directions and checks the work as it proceeds maybe they can do it, sure saves moving the boat.
Once the surveyor gets involved I think you have made an insurance claim but that`s no bad thing. The repair could be quite involved and extensive, and important for you in keeping your boat. The Yard should cover your excess and they or their insurer recompense your insure, if that happens your excess and insurability generally should not change.
I hope you get a good insurer provided surveyor, he will be key to getting this well resolved, and I hope it goes well.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Lou, things should start to move once your insurer`s surveyor gets on the job. It is surprising a yard whose "bread and butter" work includes storing blocked boats each winter could get it so wrong.
Whether you trust them to do the repair is another thing, but if the surveyor issues directions and checks the work as it proceeds maybe they can do it, sure saves moving the boat.
Once the surveyor gets involved I think you have made an insurance claim but that`s no bad thing. The repair could be quite involved and extensive, and important for you in keeping your boat. The Yard should cover your excess and they or their insurer recompense your insure, if that happens your excess and insurability generally should not change.
I hope you get a good insurer provided surveyor, he will be key to getting this well resolved, and I hope it goes well.

In fact the work, even if done on site, will not be done by the boatyard itself but by a contractor coming on site.
Not sure what contractor though as even if the yard has one "affiliated" one, the insurance may have their own so will see.

L

 

[O C Diver]

I'm not talking price in different areas, but price in the same area.

That's fine. A boatyard that hauls 1,000 boats a year probably has a very different cost basis versus one hauling 100 boats per year. I think this is very different than comparing marinas based on skilled labor cost per hour.

Ted

 

[saltcod]

On the west coast, we use adjustable boat stands, plus some 12 x 12 blocks under the keel. no one place where there is too much weight

 

[jskinner30PII]

Terrible job Blocking. Hope you get it fix and back into water ASAP.
Attached is my boat in my drive way.33' 10,000lb. I had several conversations with my yard on how many supports I needed.
Better safe than sorry.
Jeff.

 

[Ski in NC]

A hard keel boat like the blue one above is easier to block. That keel forms a structural "spine" that can tolerate concentrated loads. Provided it is a solid and not foam filled keel.

Lou's ride looked like no spine on the center line, so that has to blocked in multiple places.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Finally got my appointment with insurance surveyor for tomorrow morning. We talked about the pictures I sent him and he told me (over the phone) that the boat was clearly not set properly, that one block is not enough and that considering the angle the block was making the full weight was resting over 2 inches of wood.
Let see tomorrow...

L

 

[psneeld]

Terrible job Blocking. Hope you get it fix and back into water ASAP.
Attached is my boat in my drive way.33' 10,000lb. I had several conversations with my yard on how many supports I needed.
Better safe than sorry.
Jeff.

A tid bit.... I learned from different yards that one really shouldn't stack 2 wooden blocks like in the picture as they are prone to roll.


Better to have the bottom layer 2 blocks parallel to the keel, and the top block perpendicular. A more stable pyramid.


If the blocks are super big, then you can rotate the pyramid and have the top block full length under the keel ...but I am not crazy for that unless they are REALLY wide

 

[dirtdoc1]

The hull is full fiberglass, no sandwich. The keel is not hollow but thick plain fiberglass. The boat is on 3 stands, 2 adjustable one on aft and one in front ( the wood one I show). Problem there is that they did not set the one in front properly and flat. The wood piece was sitting at and angle so the full weight was on the wood angle and not the full flat wood surface. First thing I check is if the broken fiberglass was wet or rotten in any way, what is not the case, it is perfectly dry and solid. Issue for me is obvious, if you put many tons on a single point it will break as the pressure is not distributed.
The tank showing in the picture is the waste tank. Not a big deal to remove it but better to be sure it is perfectly empty before disconnecting the discharge or it will be a big mess.

I immediately went to the guy at the marina so to show the damage to him, while not the owner he clearly stated that the issue was the way it has been set on blocks and it is an insurance case.


I will be monday morning at 7AM at the marina to deal with the owner. Just hope this will not go wild and to be able to get back in water before September in order not to ruined my planned 3 weeks cruise.

Let see...

L

I'm so sorry that, that happened. If the yard used the corner of the block (as I think you said) that is called point loading. As the contact area is reduced under the same weight, the pounds per square inch goes up. An engineer could explain it a lot better but that's the jist of it.

Contact your insurance company right away. They'll know what to do.

Get it fixed ASAP and cruise!

 

[Southx10]

Hull damage

I need a drink and a strong one

L

That blocking is set wrong, the top board should be length wise to the keel to spread the load. Depending on boat length there should be at least 3 sets of blocking. The keel with enough blocking should support the boat. The stands keep the boat upright.
Good Luck

 

[BandB]

It amazes me how we block very expensive boats and scrimp on boards, using small and using scraps and using too few and scrimp on stands. A yard should have an unlimited supply of stands and blocks and it takes just a little more time to do it right.

 

[Comodave]

Yes. Our yard bought several hundred new pieces of 2x4, 4x4 and 4x6 last fall to replace old blocking that was getting worn and cracking. They never skimp on blocking. If I ask for more they very willingly add more blocking.

 

[landsend]

Ouch

Similar issue with an 1984 37 albin palm beach. They built it very light to keep the weight down , supposed to be a “fast trawler” but more than likely it was cost that was the real issue. It pushed up through the centerline fiberglass fuel tank and put 200 gal. Of diesel in the parking lot. Insurance paid for the spill not the repairs which I spent the winter doing.
Good luck

 

[Tugalert]

1_ What is the length, builder, Date of construction ?
2- Has the yard hauled your boat in the past?
3- Were you there when your boat was hauled and blocked?

I had a small tug that towed small barges and pleasure boats . Once while towing a 36 foot FG sail boat the owner tried to sue me saying I caused damage side hull damage. He showed me there the whole port side that had stress cracks that he said I caused. At that point I inspected the boat and found that it was a aged boat had stressed cracks on both sides. It was just a boater looking for a pay day. As it turned out he never paid me for the tow as well as never paid the marina charges. Many older boats have soft spots in the hull and cabin that is painted over. Because of this I always took pictures of the towed boat before and after the job.

 

[Phil23]

Is that the full blocking plan, no aft blocks just those shown and adjustable aquaprops!!!!!!!!!?????????

 

[Lou_tribal]

1_ What is the length, builder, Date of construction ?
2- Has the yard hauled your boat in the past?
3- Were you there when your boat was hauled and blocked?

I had a small tug that towed small barges and pleasure boats . Once while towing a 36 foot FG sail boat the owner tried to sue me saying I caused damage side hull damage. He showed me there the whole port side that had stress cracks that he said I caused. At that point I inspected the boat and found that it was a aged boat had stressed cracks on both sides. It was just a boater looking for a pay day. As it turned out he never paid me for the tow as well as never paid the marina charges. Many older boats have soft spots in the hull and cabin that is painted over. Because of this I always took pictures of the towed boat before and after the job.

No I don't want to get money from the marina, I just want to get a marina where people know what they are doing.
I don't want the marina to repair anything wrong on the boat, I am taking care of it.
I just want responsabilities to be honestly, fairly and clearly established.
If I give my car to a repair shop, it is for them to repair it. If I take it back and the door is wrecked and was not before well they had the responsibility to take care of the car so they should fairly take the responsibility to repair the damage.

L

 

[IWAB]

Major Damage

Am really sorry to see such damage as shown from your photos. I’m still not sure how many blocks under your keel other than the one shown. I’ll go back and review your prior posts, so I’m not making a mistake.

I recently was on the hard in California, and for my 42’ GB Europa, my keel was blocked in four places. I never even thought much about it, until after reading and seeing your situation. Sorry the picture isn’t oriented correctly, but you can see what was done.

I am fortunate to have had a competent yard that knew how to care for boats removed from the water and properly supported while work was being done. Before seeing what happened to you, I had assumed yards knew how to properly block many different types of boats. Next time I’ll be sure to make sure to closely watch as support is provided.

I agree with previous posters regarding hiring your own “qualified”surveyor, taking lots of pictures and keeping contemporaneous notes of what is said in resolving your situation. I don’t know about marine insurers, but I am careful and keep my guard up even with my own insurers when dealing with a claim. They’re used to lawyers, courtrooms and strict interpretation of insurance policy wording, to avoid paying any more than required.

 

[sdowney717]

Since no wood is involved, the repair should not be hard. Have to grind back to solid material and feather the edge for new glass and resin.

And that block is way to narrow, every-time I am hauled, the block support seems about 12 inchs on the keel. Some of the Douglass Fir blocks are narrower and some wider. Never yet seen that happen to a boat. At least 3 blocks are used, I like 4 under my keel, which runs almost all the way aft.

In the yard, I have jacked up my keel and moved keel blocks, for that I have some 3/4 inch plate steel, actually a RR track pad that sits under the rails of a railroad iron track that the train wheels roll on. That is plenty strong for me to jack and do stuff with a 20 ton bottle jack for my 20,000 lb boat. Since my boat is wood, my keel is white oak, my worm shoe I made out of Cumaru, which is extremely strong and dense wood.

 

[hmason]

Lou, Please hire an independent surveyor to protect your interests. As an example, we had damage to our house. Our insurance company's adjuster assessed the damage at $30,000. At the urging of a friend I hired an independent adjuster. The insurance company then settled my claim for $110,000. Yes, you read that correctly. Good luck.

 

[Woodland Hills]

This was my advice back in post #42. We once had earthquake damage to a 3 story apartment building and the independent adjuster got us 3x’s what the insurance company offered. In the end we spent every penny on repairs and code upgrades.

 

[sbu22]

What Howard and Woodland Hills said X3. Lou, I consult on some major commercial & industrial insurance claims on the insured's team. A substantial part of their business plan is to minimize payouts, obviosly. They're pros - that's what they do for a living, full time. Get a reputable and experienced claims surveyor/adjuster - inexperienced will get chewed up & spit out. Don't go to a gunfight with a knife. Funny how when our "inflated" claims are successfully settled, the inflation winds up being needed to finance competent repairs.

If it turns out to be truly minor, you've spent a few bucks but you know the boat is sound.