Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-16-2014, 09:03 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
City: Granite Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pier Runner 5
Vessel Model: 22 ft Suntracker Pontoon
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 41
Looking at Trawlers

So, we have been looking at a lot of boats lately and came upon a late 70's Litton Europa trawler w/twin Lehman 120's. Any opinions or knowledge of these models would be greatly appreciated We like the boat but don't know of the "original" quality of them. Thanks for the help as always.
__________________
Advertisement

CMA1992 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2014, 09:33 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Adelaide's Avatar
 
City: La Conner, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1983 Tung Hwa Clipper
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 365
It's a Taiwan trawler. It will be important to have a thorough survey in and out of the water. Things to look for:

1: Have the fuel tanks been replaced? Leaking from fittings with standing water on top of the tanks have lead to failure. If they are original tanks, you will want to closely examine them from the top down and inside, if possible. Extremely costly, many people cut them out and replace with a daisy chain of smaller tanks.

2: Does it still have teak decks? check for soft decks and overall condition of the teak and bungs that cover the screws. If the boat's deck has been replaced with solid fiberglass, that is generally a good thing. It is extremely expensive to rip out the teak. Some use truck bed liner as an alternative, with mixed results.

3: Ford Lehman engines are wonderful, easy engines to work on. Parts are readily available in most places. Have an oil sample sent out for testing.

4: Wiring, does the boat have updated wiring with breakers?

5: Check windows for possible leaks, have they been replaced yet? If not, this is a weak spot.

6: where was the boat stored? undercover? boat house? outside?

7: Hull structure, many Taiwan boats have blisters. You'll want to have the boat pulled during the survey. If it has blisters, pay close attention if you see oozing or can induce oozing with a blade. Does it smell like rotten eggs? The surveyor will help you determine if the blisters are structurally concerning for a 40+/- year old boat.

All this looks concerning, but the right boat with the right mindset will offer you years of service and can be the best bang for the buck out there. Also, 70/80's Taiwan Trawlers have mostly bottomed out, it should hold it's value if you take good care of it. There isn't much meat left on the bone for it to depreciate much lower than where they are. I'd recommend storing it in covered moorage, if available, to limit it's further exposure to rain.

Good Luck in your search!
__________________

Adelaide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 01:41 AM   #3
Veteran Member
 
City: Granite Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pier Runner 5
Vessel Model: 22 ft Suntracker Pontoon
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 41
Thank you for the quick response. Yes it does have all teak decks. What does it take to replace all the teak? Is there a lot of screw holes that need to be plugged when it is removed or is it just a dirty gluey mess? The rest, I will definitely look into and get a haul out survey and engine survey done before I buy. Will know more this weekend. What is "expensive" for the teak replacement/removal. A couple thousand or tens of thousands and do boat yards do this? Thank You
CMA1992 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 05:04 AM   #4
Guru
 
Insequent's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Insequent
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 50 Mk I
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,427
Teak decks are not that expensive to deal with in the overall scheme of things. Whilst some water gets down screw holes missing bungs, most will have entered your core via caulking seams that pulled away from edges. My foredeck was about 100 sq ft. I removed the teak, which had just under 1000 screws holding it down. Then the yard removed the upper GRP skin, in sections, to expose the balsa core which was wet in most places and rotten in about 30% of the total area. This is in a 1981 year Taiwan built boat. We installed 2 x6mm marine ply using vinylester resin, overlapping the edge joins. Then a bunch of glass and vinylester over the top for a new GRP top skin. Filled and faired.... Then it was painted with awlgrip with microballoons sprinkled for non-slip. The yard cost in Port Townsend for this was about $170 per sq ft. Your deck may have ply rather than balsa but it rots just as badly. Subsequently i had my boat deck repaired, but we were able to do it in patches and I only needed to do about 20% of the deck area. We used a 3/8 drill to test soft areas for wetness. Then just move outwards with holes until you find dry core. These drill holes are easy GRP repairs to do whilst you are replacing the wet core.

Pics are of rotten balsa (black), and the process outlined above although not in exact sequence.

For your tank question. Yes, I replaced mine. I ought to have realized that the diesel smell permeating the ER in particular was more than spilt diesel or old injector leaks. Use a camera on a stalk to look under the tanks as well - if you see large amounts of rustflakes then the tanks are pretty much finished. My rust was worst on the outside of the tanks where they rested against the hull. Very difficult to inspect this area, and may not be possible during survey as access might require some cutting away of covering material. Water ingress was mostly rain coming in via the engine room vents, which at that time had no dorade protection system. Water pooled on top of the tanks and ran down the outside of them. Tank replacement is expensive. You have to remove a lot of stuff to get the old ones out, possibly even the engines.

But these old Taiwanese builds are still great boats. Very solid. It is more likely that mid and late 80's will have blisters as that is when yards started to experiment with resin types and layups in order to trim costs. Before that, the layups tended to be overkill - a good thing for longevity though!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Foredeck balsa 2.jpg
Views:	128
Size:	202.6 KB
ID:	32878   Click image for larger version

Name:	Foredeck balsa removed 2.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	155.5 KB
ID:	32879   Click image for larger version

Name:	Foredeck new 4.jpg
Views:	123
Size:	94.2 KB
ID:	32880   Click image for larger version

Name:	Foredeck new 1.jpg
Views:	122
Size:	112.5 KB
ID:	32881   Click image for larger version

Name:	Foredeck new 7.jpg
Views:	121
Size:	106.5 KB
ID:	32882  

Click image for larger version

Name:	foredeck new 12.jpg
Views:	106
Size:	62.8 KB
ID:	32883  
__________________
Brian
Insequent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 09:37 AM   #5
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
Great example and even better information, Brian. The thought of tearing the skin off of one's deck can be overwhelming. Thankfully, I don't seem to have real issues, but even the best 30 year old cored deck is going to show some signs of water intrusion somewhere. Thanks for the share.
__________________
Larry

"I'd rather be happy than dignified".
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 11:59 AM   #6
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
Polyester resin is only 87% water proof. Epoxy over 99%
Water absorbs in all FRP hulls, decks etc. This becomes a problem with cored decks and hulls especially.
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 01:37 PM   #7
Veteran Member
 
City: Granite Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pier Runner 5
Vessel Model: 22 ft Suntracker Pontoon
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 41
Brian, that new deck looks great! Is that $170 a typo because that would be $17,000 for a you 100 Sq ft spot. That sounds scary. It sounds like you did a lot of the work yourself?
CMA1992 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 03:35 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Adelaide's Avatar
 
City: La Conner, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1983 Tung Hwa Clipper
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMA1992 View Post
Brian, that new deck looks great! Is that $170 a typo because that would be $17,000 for a you 100 Sq ft spot. That sounds scary. It sounds like you did a lot of the work yourself?

$17,000 on a 50 foot yacht, is nothing, and well worth the money. CMA, not all decks have to be replaced. If it was well cared for, it can outlast you. Same with the Lehman engines. The key is to find a boat that was well cared for, with life left in the decks. The surveyor should be able to tell you that. Good Luck!
Adelaide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 03:49 PM   #9
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
Nice job!!
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 05:54 PM   #10
Guru
 
Insequent's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Insequent
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 50 Mk I
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMA1992 View Post
Brian, that new deck looks great! Is that $170 a typo because that would be $17,000 for a you 100 Sq ft spot. That sounds scary. It sounds like you did a lot of the work yourself?
No, it wasn't a typo and your arithmetic is correct. My surveyor had estimated $15k, so I was happy with the outcome. And negotiating the purchase price reflected the deck issue.

My part of the job was removal of the teak and fittings such as the windlass. I could have done more - taking the top skin off and removing the core for example. Heck, even putting the marine ply down etc is within DIY skill-sets. But it does come down to time - they had a couple of guys on it, and I would have been much slower.

Use a hammer to locate soft spots, then drill-test as I described earlier. If your caulking seams only had a few bad adhesion areas then you may find that the total sq ft of core that needs to be replaced isn't that large anyway.
__________________
Brian
Insequent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 06:01 PM   #11
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,932
DYI deck repair...materials were about $500
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Photo296.jpg
Views:	107
Size:	164.5 KB
ID:	32896   Click image for larger version

Name:	Photo361.jpg
Views:	116
Size:	191.5 KB
ID:	32897   Click image for larger version

Name:	Photo156.jpg
Views:	126
Size:	76.8 KB
ID:	32898  
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 06:33 PM   #12
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
Perfect!!!


I'll be posting on my deck project soon, fyi
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 07:38 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
Adelaide's Avatar
 
City: La Conner, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1983 Tung Hwa Clipper
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
DYI deck repair...materials were about $500

Nice work psneeld! I wish I had your skills. That is really clean. How long did it take you?
Adelaide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 07:44 PM   #14
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
Super clean!
__________________
Larry

"I'd rather be happy than dignified".
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 09:36 PM   #15
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,986
Great deck picts guys and real nice looking finished products. I want to reiterate what was intoned here before... so the OP well understands ramifications of the situation.

Best to locate any type or model of a "classic" old boat that may interest you... that is already in good condition (well cared for) before it becomes yours. IMO, keep searching till a boat in good condition is located. Then work a deal with seller regarding price that takes into account items that need attention. If the price remains too high - move on to the next good condition boat you can find.

This is "Pleasure" Boating. We each have different definitions to that phrase. Mine is: Good condition boat, requiring minimum of repair and maintenance, at a good price, that makes luv to me and wife while we make luv to it! Others have different feelings. Some like to often work on their boat. Some don't want to touch a thing on their boat.

We live 100 miles from where boat is kept. When we take days-in-a-row for R&R aboard we like to play and swim and gunk hole in our tow-behind runabout! I enjoy doing what is needed in maintenance/repair while aboard for long weekends; but, I don't want work to much... we are there for "Pleasure" and to unwind from busy lives.

I also recommend covered berth. It minimizes sun and rain and wind damage to your beloved boat. The small extra cost compared to open berth is minimal. I am confident that savings on boat needs pay for most or not all of covered berth annual rent. And, savings in my time for maintenance/repair is priceless.

Another great reducer in boat repairs/costs is to dock in fresh water... for many reasons! Also dock at marinas that are not "HOT" regarding stray electrical currents in the water - that goes for fresh or salt water areas. Salt is a great current conductor.

Happy Boating Daze! - Art
Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2014, 09:53 PM   #16
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
Nice work psneeld! I wish I had your skills. That is really clean. How long did it take you?
Probably about 3 weeks for the flybridge due to the large section I cut out and replaced.

2 weeks for the side decks...by then I had the system down pretty well.

I love that picture ...hardly any of the imperfections show...

My boat is/was such a mess...I'm running full speed while part time work, 4 months winter cruise and living aboard all slow the processes down and force me to do many things at the 80 percent level.

Which may still be better than some peoples work and in some cases better than new...but I figure to get the boat safe, seaworthy, comfortable and cruisin'...it's going to be the 80 percent rule and fix things as I get back to them or as I tear them apart while working on a new system.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 01:19 AM   #17
Veteran Member
 
City: Granite Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pier Runner 5
Vessel Model: 22 ft Suntracker Pontoon
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 41
Thanks for all the info and inspiration The one thing I know for sure about whatever boat we purchase is that it will live uncovered in San Francisco. We want to keep it at Pier 39 so not only will we have a boat on the Bay but also a place to stay on weekends, especially during those 100 degree days we have in the Sacramento valley. So maybe I need to find a boat with a lot less Teak decking or none at all? We really like the idea of having the entire back deck and most of the side decks under Hard cover. Also, are there many boats out there that have the Forward facing windows that are older and not $200k? Am I correct in assuming that window design will lower the chances of having leaky front windows, since the boat will not be in a covered slip? Thank you all for such great advice and help. We will find the "right gal" someday
CMA1992 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 05:29 AM   #18
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,537
Am I correct in assuming that window design will lower the chances of having leaky front windows,

The quality of the build will determine how rapidly windows leak.
FF is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 11:43 AM   #19
Guru
 
Mule's Avatar
 
City: Fort Pierce
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Florita Ann
Vessel Model: 1982 Present
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,790
You might check these out. Friend of mine has one, I am impressed. He has the 4 stroke 8.2 Detroit. Had to change out tanks but easy job as tank changing goes. Huge engine room. Look at the singles if you swing that way.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...dedSelected=-1

I think some carpentry might be a thought, those Ozzie & Harriet beds do not cut it.
Mule is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 12:55 PM   #20
Veteran Member
 
City: Granite Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pier Runner 5
Vessel Model: 22 ft Suntracker Pontoon
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 41
Mule, thanks for the link. Those boats look really nice, I have never seen those Roughwater Boats. Probably because I definately want twin diesels as I want to take it to the Farallon islands (Aprox 30 miles outside the Golden Gate) and do not feel comfortable going out there on a single. I do appreciate the help though
As for the quality of the boat, how do you find out if they are quality boats since they (late 70's/early 80's) are hard to find info on and I have read that many of the same boats could have been built in seperate "factories" and therefor the difference in quality could be significant depending on where it was built? I am new to the "big" pleasure boat world and so my knowledge of such things is far less than most of you out there - hope some of my questions are not "dumb". As one of my Professor's always said "the only dumb questions are the one not asked" (Ha Ha) Thanks as always
__________________

CMA1992 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012