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Old 10-28-2013, 09:11 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by bglad View Post
A substantial money item that has required repair on several is the aft centerline fuel tank.Aft berth, water tank and aft cabin deck have to come out to replace it.
YIKES
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:16 AM   #22
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When you mean repo, does that mean the Bank still hold it? If so this may be helpful to you.

This past summer, I bought a 2000 45’ Carver just to play around on that was a repo by the Bank. The vessel was well kept so there was really not much to repair. With that said, the key in placing a bid to the bank is to let the bank make a few bucks, that they can live with. What I mean by that is this.

Let’s say, the Bank needs to recoup 50k to pay the balance off, you place a bid of 52k on the vessel, the Bank will take that bid. You do the survey. Now let’s say after the survey the vessel will need 1k of repairs. You make readjustment bid of 51K. The Bank will more than likely take that bid, just to clear it off their books. The way they see it, they have made money off the vessel by the loan payments that were made and plus they have recouped their investment, plus made 1K.

The trick is to really find out how much is owed on the vessel. If you can do that you can get the vessel at a lower cost than market price. If you can find out the last owner and get that info you will have a great chance.

As far as a Carver and being full time live aboard? I wouldn’t want to do it myself but that is me. Carver’s are play around vessels IMO.

Wakes and waves rock them greatly at lower speeds and from your question about fuel burn I am taking it that you would want to run slow and easy. I run mine at lower speeds because I am in no hurry. To cut down on the rocking when being passed (even by smaller vessels), I just simply cut into the wake. Even by doing that, the vessel is still rocking a great deal.

At higher speeds the vessel handles the wakes and waves better but the ride is not all that smooth. The fuel burn on Carver’s are pretty good from what I can tell. I really have not broken it down to see what I get GPH. I do know I filled the 300 gal tank and I have not had to refill it yet in 2 month of playing on the weekends, so I am guessing it is doing pretty good. But as we all know, there are many factors to fuel burn rates. Mine is gas so to try and give a number on GPH for a diesel would be a guess on my part, so I will not do it.

Is a Carver a good vessel? Yes for what it is. They are well built vessel and I know many Carver owners that are happy with them. I am happy with mine for what I do with it and plus I got it a great price. And I do mean a REALLY GREAT PRICE!

I guess the best thing anyone can tell you is this. Find a vessel that fits your needs. Do not fit your needs to the vessel.
I wish you all the best and I hope you find that vessel the fits your needs.

H. Foster.
Good info, but I respectfully disagree with your points about making an offer on a repo boat. We bought our 4087 from a well known repo service (Marine Lenders in Seattle); she had been there for a few months. Asking was $99k- we offered $55k. We were countered, and both parties settled on $70k.

We didn't know what the bank was into the boat for, nor did we care. The bank wants the boat off the books as fast as possible, as the boat represents pure profit- the outstanding balance is written off as bad debt when the boat is repossessed.
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:43 AM   #23
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Good info, but I respectfully disagree with your points about making an offer on a repo boat. We bought our 4087 from a well known repo service (Marine Lenders in Seattle); she had been there for a few months. Asking was $99k- we offered $55k. We were countered, and both parties settled on $70k.

We didn't know what the bank was into the boat for, nor did we care. The bank wants the boat off the books as fast as possible, as the boat represents pure profit- the outstanding balance is written off as bad debt when the boat is repossessed.
I'm surprised that there hasn't been more boat short sales.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:17 AM   #24
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Point in fact

Several months ago repo boat was for sale at $29,995 (top dollar IMO). In a berth at a boat brokerake... I did quick look and offered $15,000 (fair value IMO) with DP in escrow and my contingencies in contract. Broker said doubt bank will accept - BUT they did. So... I went to do my own in-depth survey (I have the knowledge and tools/equipment to do so). Couple hrs into survey I found two glaring problems... I dropped my bid to $9,500. Bank did not accept - and, today, I'm just as glad they didn’t!

Since then Boat asking price progressively dropped from $29,995 all the way down to now $16,995 - She still sits there w/ For Sale sign.

There's always another one around the corner!
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:32 AM   #25
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I'm surprised that there hasn't been more boat short sales.

I have a friend that had a 4788 Bayliner and was upside down. His bank allowed a short sale as opposed to a repossession and sale.

The problem with a short sale is who pays the difference between the boat sale price and the loan amount?
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:41 AM   #26
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The bank usually eats the difference, Kevin- they are involved and must approve the proposed sale amount. It gets the property of the books, and saves the bank from having to deal with the sale of a boat.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:58 AM   #27
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Pau Hana,

I understand your disagreement, but my point was to buy the vessel under market price. Even in your case you reached that goal. Market price was 99K selling price was 70K.

Yes you are right that the vessel was written off upon repo as bad debt, but the Bank still owns the vessel and need to get it off their books. The Bank will always make money of anything as we all know.

In my case, I contacted the Bank and offered them cash the same day. The person told me to hold on a second and came back with a counter offer. I recounter and he took it. The selling price was far below the market price and that is why I bought the vessel.

In todays markets you can find some really good deals due to the fact that most of the banks have to many repos, on vessels, houses and cars.

In any case, the way I look at it. If I can buy anything below market price that is worth fixing or in great shape, I'll buy it... LOL

Happy cruising.

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Old 10-28-2013, 11:12 AM   #28
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Art.

As you always say. "There is another deal around the corner!" There are Banks out there that will not deal on this or that. But in time they will end up giving that vessel away. I would say given time, someone will pick that vessel up for about 3k, but by then the vessel will not be worth anything.

Happy crusing Art all the best to you and yours my friend.

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Old 10-28-2013, 11:19 AM   #29
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Ebach.

The reasons why Carver rock from wakes and waves, is due to them being top heavy. I beleve the 55 you are looking at is around 52,000 lbs. My is around 39,000. The 55 will do a little better than the 45. There are some 55 and 56, 57 as so forth that are not that top heavy and ride alot smoother.

All the best to you.

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Old 10-28-2013, 01:00 PM   #30
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We had a Tolly in our marina, that was in good codition, go back to the bank last year. The bank was holding a note for $80,000 on her. Probably $20 K more than she was worth. In less than 6 months after taking it back, the bank unloaded it for less than $20K.

A good thing to know, is how long has the bank been sitting on the boat and paying moorage/storage. The longer the period of time, the more eager they will be to unload it.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:14 PM   #31
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I have a friend that had a 4788 Bayliner and was upside down. His bank allowed a short sale as opposed to a repossession and sale.

The problem with a short sale is who pays the difference between the boat sale price and the loan amount?
Really depends on the short sale agreement....a good short sale attorney (I had one for 4 properties) will get the bank to agree that they will not come after the difference. Some will (especially if the paper was sold to a 3rd party)...many won't unless we are talking bigger bucks on the difference...because the legal fees add up quickly.

In real estate...not too long ago the banks were offering a cash incentive if the short sale went quickly...my one bank sent me a check for $1500 for being out of the property within the month for closing.

The banks are more lenient if the note has been held awhile...remember they made a huge amount on interest all those years...and they get the deduction on the bad loan...so as long as they aren't eating too many short sales and foreclosures...it's just the cost of doing business with them.

One day I was sitting on the beach talking to a guy admiring all the boats at anchor. We got admiring all the boats and I said my center console was the little one over in the corner and he told me where his was. I commented on how people could afford all these really nice boats (mid-90s when times were roaring)...he said they couldn't...he was a banker and that probably at least half those boats would be repoed....boat loans were his top headache. he said enjoy what you have...especially if you own it outright.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:53 PM   #32
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Art.

As you always say. "There is another deal around the corner!" There are Banks out there that will not deal on this or that. But in time they will end up giving that vessel away. I would say given time, someone will pick that vessel up for about 3k, but by then the vessel will not be worth anything.

Happy crusing Art all the best to you and yours my friend.

H. Foster

Mr. HF, My Friend! Great ta see ya back in da TF loop...

To a boat knowledgeable buyer, in today’s market, that boat I was mentioning is probably worth just about what you mentioned $3k +/- realistically. 33’ CC flybridge cruiser with full weekend-fun accoutrements and twin 454’s at 140 hrs each from brand new in latter 1990’s. Boat layout is very cool and speed is somewhat affordable at a reported 24 knots (approx 1 nmpg). Top speed is reported to hit 34 kph – God knows nmpg at WOT (1/3 nmpg, maybe??) And, I feel sure she could get close to 2 nmpg at around 6 knots! It’s been in Lake Tahoe and SF Delta fresh waters since new. I was going to purchase simply for a rental item that had full coverage by others and the boat was to also be kept up by others. Would have been an OK deal! Flaws I found: Port stringer has too much moisture, but could be overcome/repaired at a bit of cost (starboard stringer was dry). No FWC heat transfer system... raw water only. To put in FWC (so could be correctly run in SF Bay) is few thousand in parts and a big pia for me or way too expensive if I shopped it out – quotes from $9K to $12K.

Happy Boating Daze – H

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Old 10-28-2013, 06:25 PM   #33
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Really depends on the short sale agreement....a good short sale attorney (I had one for 4 properties) will get the bank to agree that they will not come after the difference. Some will (especially if the paper was sold to a 3rd party)...many won't unless we are talking bigger bucks on the difference...because the legal fees add up quickly.

In real estate...not too long ago the banks were offering a cash incentive if the short sale went quickly...my one bank sent me a check for $1500 for being out of the property within the month for closing.

The banks are more lenient if the note has been held awhile...remember they made a huge amount on interest all those years...and they get the deduction on the bad loan...so as long as they aren't eating too many short sales and foreclosures...it's just the cost of doing business with them.

One day I was sitting on the beach talking to a guy admiring all the boats at anchor. We got admiring all the boats and I said my center console was the little one over in the corner and he told me where his was. I commented on how people could afford all these really nice boats (mid-90s when times were roaring)...he said they couldn't...he was a banker and that probably at least half those boats would be repoed....boat loans were his top headache. he said enjoy what you have...especially if you own it outright.
If the banks signed into the federal programs, they were reimbursed their loss with taxpayers money.

The fed took ownership positions via stock in these banks. Just ask BoA.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:29 PM   #34
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I seem to remember that Carver purchased Californian in the late eighties. To that point Californian was a well respected brand with a good following. The build quality was on par with the similar sized Bayliners, SeaRays and Cruisers. Unfortunately after rebadging the Californian for a few years, Carver elected to shut down the CA plant and go with their own designs and builds, elsewhere in the US.

I like the Californians and many are in great shape with none of the warts the OP has noted in the bank repo. It sounds like the repo is ready for some major dollars, if it is not a hurricane Sandy survivor. I'm suspicious though of salt water in the ER, not a good sign.

My guess is the repo would require a lot of money, likely the same amount a well found vessel of similar size would cost to buy it outright. Also, knowing the Californian as I do, the FB enclosure will easily cost $8K. Get your wallet out, along with a long rehab if this vessel is as you describe it.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:59 PM   #35
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boat buying is kind of like this ...

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Old 10-29-2013, 12:03 AM   #36
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With water in the ER check the stringers VERY Carefully. If they are wood core and water got in the stringer(s) may be toast! I've seen that happen to several boats. Stringers can cost price of boat to repair once rotten. And, strong stringers are a MUST!

Just be careful and walk away if needed... another boat for you is around the corner!

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Old 10-29-2013, 12:07 AM   #37
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Boat loans here include personal recourse on top of the boat, and are often secured over other assets too.
It`s axiomatic that the boat owner who can`t pay his boat loan probably couldn`t pay to maintain the boat either.
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Old 10-29-2013, 07:17 AM   #38
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Art.

Yeah, been busy digging into power plants and trans plus some other things for my project. Have take a few more step towards our dream.

From what you said on that vessel. YES I would have walked away as well. In these hard times, there are too many great deals out there if you really look. I just seen a report not to long ago, that said. "Sales on vessels from 40' on down, are up 33% and sales on vessels above 40' are down 23% over last year. Ebach hit the nail are on the head when he said. "Larger vessels are not selling."

I have seen many price reductions on larger vessels just in the pass 3 months. A friend of mine has been eyeing 90' Queenship for his company. I think it's 2002 or so. The vessel was custom built with 1.5 mil of toys added to her just last year. The vessel has been well kept and is spotless. The asking price started at 2.7 mil. and has dropped all the way down to 1.9 mil. That is a big drop in price for a vessel like that.

The way I see it, the market has not bottomed out as of yet. I believe in the next 2 years we will see lager top end vessels going for half the price they are right now. It is truley a buyers market for larger vessels and that market is going to get better.

Happy crusing to you my friend.

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Old 10-29-2013, 07:38 AM   #39
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Art.

Yeah, been busy digging into power plants and trans plus some other things for my project. Have take a few more step towards our dream.

From what you said on that vessel. YES I would have walked away as well. In these hard times, there are too many great deals out there if you really look. I just seen a report not to long ago, that said. "Sales on vessels from 40' on down, are up 33% and sales on vessels above 40' are down 23% over last year. Ebach hit the nail are on the head when he said. "Larger vessels are not selling."

I have seen many price reductions on larger vessels just in the pass 3 months. A friend of mine has been eyeing 90' Queenship for his company. I think it's 2002 or so. The vessel was custom built with 1.5 mil of toys added to her just last year. The vessel has been well kept and is spotless. The asking price started at 2.7 mil. and has dropped all the way down to 1.9 mil. That is a big drop in price for a vessel like that.

The way I see it, the market has not bottomed out as of yet. I believe in the next 2 years we will see lager top end vessels going for half the price they are right now. It is truley a buyers market for larger vessels and that market is going to get better.

Happy crusing to you my friend.

H. Foster
H

TY for price info on da biggies. Sounds like “Galaxy Girl” had better wait a couple years till she buys a biggie... if she ever will at all?? I stopped posting or even reading her threads months ago... Reminds me of a kid at ice cream counter that can't decide on what flavor ice cream to order and simply will not listen to reason by elders. Don, of “Moonstruck” backed away about same time as me. When she starts a thread there are others who still give her the redundant suggestions over and again. She should read your post quoted here and simply wait till prices at least approach the bottom.

Best luck with your present play toy and the eventual build-out of your Fleming!

Ciao, Art
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:03 AM   #40
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Art, my friend.

I see you saw the light along with some others... LOL
Posts are free to read, what someone takes from them is on them. Thanks for you best wishs my friend. 1 step at a time I say to get it right. lol

I am afraid we have hijecked Ebach thread, Sorry about that Ebach!!!. I do hope things are working out with your project. Keep us posted!

Ok Art. Thanks again and you are welcome on the input on the biggies.

Cheers my friend.

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