Lets Narrow down a number for Upkeep

[Gordon J]

I have read numerous figures for boat upkeep, to include the oft quoted 10% of purchase price per year.

I wonder what folks on TF are paying for upkeep. Lets define that number as the AVERAGE annual cost of maintaining a boat. Upgrades, which are not required should not be included. For example, I chose to upgrade two chart plotters last fall even though the two I had worked. I would not include that number. I do not consider fuel, dockage or insurance to be maintenance.

 

[sunchaser]

10% + or - all in ownership expenses is pretty good for me. I know those with multi million dollar vessels that with crew, costs even more than 10%. I also know those that are 100% DIYers who dock vessel behind house and spend very low %s.

No number is wrong. It is what we choose it to be and act accordingly.

 

[Shrew]

Personally, I think that these are averages and are calculated over longer periods of time.
Consider the average high temp. in Maine is 54F and the average high temp in Florida is 82.

Go to Maine in January and the average high is 30F, while in July it's 78F.
Go to Florida in January an the average high is 64F, while in Jul/Aug it's 92.

I think the same averages apply to boating. some years are very high, some are very low. Total the cost over 10 years and divide by the number of years. We put the same amount aside whether we spend it or not. You don't repower every year, but a single repower will drive the average cost of maintenance over the period of ownership up very high.

You're not just counting wax, oil, belts, filters, cleaner. Consider when big items go like generator, engine, canvas/eisinglass, electronics, etc.

 

[Gordon J]

Sunchaser,

There is no wrong number. But we have had numerous folks new to the trawler world who wonder what that number is. I thought getting some ideas from the assembled experts here might be helpful.

Gordon

 

[Lou_tribal]

This will be difficult to answer and I guess you will have as many answers as there are boaters and boats. Many parameters have an impact on the cost. First, are you doing maintenance by yourself or require someone to do it for you, this will far increase the cost. The size of the boat also will increase the cost of maintenance. Where you are cruising also, for example I am in fresh water, I do not repaint my antifouling every year but some do.
And lastly how was maintained your boat if she had a previous owner, this will have an impact on how much maintenance you will get underway.

L.

 

[Gordon J]

I agree

Personally, I think that these are averages and are calculated over longer periods of time.
Consider the average high temp. in Maine is 54F and the average high temp in Florida is 82.

Go to Maine in January and the average high is 30F, while in July it's 78F.
Go to Florida in January an the average high is 64F, while in Jul/Aug it's 92.

I think the same averages apply to boating. some years are very high, some are very low. Total the cost over 10 years and divide by the number of years. We put the same amount aside whether we spend it or not. You don't repower every year, but a single repower will drive the average cost of maintenance over the period of ownership up very high.

You're not just counting wax, oil, belts, filters, cleaner. Consider when big items go like generator, engine, canvas/eisinglass, electronics, etc.

In my budgeting, I include a monthly figure for maintenance, even thought the chances of spending that much in any one year is small. It only takes one blown engine to throw a wrench into the best plans.

 

[Gordon J]

You have a point

This will be difficult to answer and I guess you will have as many answers as there are boaters and boats. Many parameters have an impact on the cost. First, are you doing maintenance by yourself or require someone to do it for you, this will far increase the cost. The size of the boat also will increase the cost of maintenance. Where you are cruising also, for example I am in fresh water, I do not repaint my antifouling every year but some do.
And lastly how was maintained your boat if she had a previous owner, this will have an impact on how much maintenance you will get underway.

L.

I think you have a point. Perhaps we should have had two polls, one for DIYers and one for everyone else.

 

[O C Diver]

Not sure how useful that number will be. I would think the turn key number would be more useful. That would be how money you spend if the boat only sat at the dock, before you turn the key to use it.

Ted

 

[Shrew]

In my budgeting, I include a monthly figure for maintenance, even thought the chances of spending that much in any one year is small. It only takes one blown engine to throw a wrench into the best plans.

I think we're saying the same thing. We do the same. I have an account exclusively used for the boat, and a recurring deposit goes into that account every month.

To me it sounded like the OP was questioning 10% as being a very high estimate. Then again, i would consider storage as a maintenance cost.

 

[Gordon J]

All,

I agree that this poll will not get at each and every situation. I hate even tying the number to the boat's value. But it would take quite a poll to separate dual engine owners from single engine, old boats versus newer boats, bigger boats versus smaller, etc.

I have had a new boat and can tell you that I paid almost no maintenance expenses for four to five years, other than cleaning supplies and engine service items. In 10 years of ownership, my annual costs were probably closer to 1 percent. Now that I have a 14-year-old trawler with dual 330 hp engines, I expect those costs to increase and have budgeted $1000/month, although I am pretty sure that number will be too high by probably a factor of two. I have had the boat a year and other than things identified on the survey, I have had only a failure on an AC compressor.

Gordon

 

[BandB]

So many issues with this. 10% of what? Of the new price of the boat? Of the price of a five year old boat? Of the price of a 30 year old boat? 10% of the new price is high, but one buys a bargain boat for $50k, the number will be 10% or more.

Then the question of major maintenance and even that the OP considered not required. Well, sometime all those upgrades will be required, one can't go a lifetime without replacing equipment or rebuilding anything.

Then what about Insurance, docking, property taxes, licenses?

What about depreciation?

I really don't know how one agrees even on what the number applies to.

Here's where I think the 10% number comes from originally, because it's the only place I've seen it supported. It's the annual costs of owning a "yacht" or large boat, applied as a percentage of the original purchase price of the boat. It includes crew costs, docking, insurance, reserves built for future rebuilds, everything you can think to toss in. So, on a $20 million yacht, you can figure the total annual operating cost will be close to $2 million. Those are the type numbers used for charter boats, etc.

At the other end of the chart, take a new boat and then take only the cash outlays during a year for repairs and maintenance. Well, for us that is running about 1/2 of 1%. The problem is that if one uses that number, they're going to suddenly find themselves with a major expenditure and they also might be underestimating other costs like insurance, satellite if they have it, rebuilds, painting.

Are you counting bottom painting in your annual maintenance?

I just don't know how one can apply a meaningful percentage across a group of disparate boats.

 

[koliver]

Just how long is that piece of string?

 

[Gordon J]

No doubt you have some points,

So many issues with this. 10% of what? Of the new price of the boat? Of the price of a five year old boat? Of the price of a 30 year old boat? 10% of the new price is high, but one buys a bargain boat for $50k, the number will be 10% or more.

Then the question of major maintenance and even that the OP considered not required. Well, sometime all those upgrades will be required, one can't go a lifetime without replacing equipment or rebuilding anything.

Then what about Insurance, docking, property taxes, licenses?

What about depreciation?

I really don't know how one agrees even on what the number applies to.

Here's where I think the 10% number comes from originally, because it's the only place I've seen it supported. It's the annual costs of owning a "yacht" or large boat, applied as a percentage of the original purchase price of the boat. It includes crew costs, docking, insurance, reserves built for future rebuilds, everything you can think to toss in. So, on a $20 million yacht, you can figure the total annual operating cost will be close to $2 million. Those are the type numbers used for charter boats, etc.

At the other end of the chart, take a new boat and then take only the cash outlays during a year for repairs and maintenance. Well, for us that is running about 1/2 of 1%. The problem is that if one uses that number, they're going to suddenly find themselves with a major expenditure and they also might be underestimating other costs like insurance, satellite if they have it, rebuilds, painting.

Are you counting bottom painting in your annual maintenance?

I just don't know how one can apply a meaningful percentage across a group of disparate boats.

But,

So many/new prospective owners try to get their arms around the annual maintenance costs, this is a simple way to give them a rough yardstick. Many folks who buy a boat second, third or fourth hand have no idea of the initial purchase price. I was curious to measure the wisdom of our crowd and see how they measured it.

Some upgrades will be required and then will be necessary maintenance. I don't consider my chart plotter upgrades to have been necessary. It was a total discretionary purchases. Some folks on my dock are happy with their Raymarine RL chart plotters.

I opted not to include dockage and insurance because that will vary by location, size, usage and price of boat. As a prospective owner decides on a boat, she will be able to compute dockage and insurance for his situation. These are knowable well in advance. I don't know how bottom painting can not be considered a maintenance item. If you pay someone to polish and wax you boat, I would think that too would be maintenance. Since I do these things myself, I would only include the cost of materials.

So, it is somewhat like trying to figure out the length of a piece of string. If we see a cluster of answers at say 3 - 4 percent, we might have some confidence that 10 percent is an outlier. Three to four percent might not be exact, but probably closer to the truth than numbers distant from the tendency. I thought this might be a better approach to the oft quoted 10% figure which I have seen and heard batted about for all boats, crewed or otherwise, new or used.

But, from the answers so far, it seems that there is no central tendency. It will be interesting to see if a tendency develops.

Perhaps using a maintenance cost per unit length of the boat would have been a better way of getting at the question. 70-foot boats obviously take more to maintain (everything else being equal) than a 35-foot boat.

We have so much information on this forum, it would be interesting to come up with a formulation that gets at the question.

 

[Gordon J]

B&B,

Also, I understand that price can be confusing, hence the question asks as a percentage of boat value.

Still awkward, but...

 

[BandB]

But,

So many/new prospective owners try to get their arms around the annual maintenance costs, this is a simple way to give them a rough yardstick. Many folks who buy a boat second, third or fourth hand have no idea of the initial purchase price. I was curious to measure the wisdom of our crowd and see how they measured it.

Some upgrades will be required and then will be necessary maintenance. I don't consider my chart plotter upgrades to have been necessary. It was a total discretionary purchases. Some folks on my dock are happy with their Raymarine RL chart plotters.

I opted not to include dockage and insurance because that will vary by location, size, usage and price of boat. As a prospective owner decides on a boat, she will be able to compute dockage and insurance for his situation. These are knowable well in advance. I don't know how bottom painting can not be considered a maintenance item. If you pay someone to polish and wax you boat, I would think that too would be maintenance. Since I do these things myself, I would only include the cost of materials.

So, it is somewhat like trying to figure out the length of a piece of string. If we see a cluster of answers at say 3 - 4 percent, we might have some confidence that 10 percent is an outlier. Three to four percent might not be exact, but probably closer to the truth than numbers distant from the tendency. I thought this might be a better approach to the oft quoted 10% figure which I have seen and heard batted about for all boats, crewed or otherwise, new or used.

But, from the answers so far, it seems that there is no central tendency. It will be interesting to see if a tendency develops.

Perhaps using a maintenance cost per unit length of the boat would have been a better way of getting at the question. 70-foot boats obviously take more to maintain (everything else being equal) than a 35-foot boat.

We have so much information on this forum, it would be interesting to come up with a formulation that gets at the question.

But there is no formulation that gets at the question. Just look at your poll. The problem is you've chosen to base it on current value. Well, consider a new boat coasting $500k. Now make that same boat 10 years old and worth $100k or 20 years old and worth $50k. They are not going to have anywhere near the same percentage as the older boats will likely require more maintenance. So lets say it's $10k per year, then that's 2%, 10% and 20%.

Per foot would probably be better, forgetting value. Still, is it twin's or singles, how new or old. But per foot does have more of a chance of being consistent than % of value. If you're going to use value or cost to base your percentage on then it needs to be based on % of purchase price when new. That way it stays constant over the life of a boat. Not counting engine rebuilds, painting of boat, then the percentage is going to be more in the 1-3% range.

The old 10% number is the high side of total costs and even then is too high.

 

[BandB]

B&B,

Also, I understand that price can be confusing, hence the question asks as a percentage of boat value.

Still awkward, but...

But as a boat's value lowers the maintenance doesn't decrease. If anything, it increases.

 

[GFC]

Jeeeeeesus Jenny, I have never seen so many people trying to quantify and/or qualify their answers to what was posed as a relatively simple question.


This is not a scientific poll about sending a man to Mars. It's just a poll to try to come up with what most of us spend on keeping our baby clean and looking good.

 

[BandB]

Jeeeeeesus Jenny, I have never seen so many people trying to quantify and/or qualify their answers to what was posed as a relatively simple question.


This is not a scientific poll about sending a man to Mars. It's just a poll to try to come up with what most of us spend on keeping our baby clean and looking good.

And how do the results showing on the poll help the OP find their answer? They're the ones seeking a formula.

 

[Heron]

2 years in on a 28 yr old, previously well maintained ($45k) boat is running less than 1%/yr. She's a peach!

 

[markpierce]

By "upkeep," do you mean just maintenance or also such costs as taxes, insurance, and berthage. Exclusive of operating costs as in fuel?'

If one needs to know the cost of owning a boat, one probably can't afford one.

 

[markpierce]

Regardless, my fixed costs (taxes, berthage, insurance, professional routine maintenance) for my 36-foot, six-year-old boat are about $1000 a month and operating cost is about $4 to $6 an hour with an 80-horsepower engine. Replacement/repair of a failed system would increase the cost.

Percentage of boat cost/value is meaningless!!

 

[tallswede]

I voted 10% but having bought my boat a little over 1 year ago for a pretty low price and considering the boat had not been used and maintained in cruising shape, I'm at almost 100% for last year. Now that I have most of the systems updated and the boat running well now, I expect that to drop drastically now. I'm still doing updates but the big stuff is done (knock on wood). I'll be dealing with comfort and cosmetics but we can do those at a more reasonable pace as we use and enjoy the boat now. We just spent our first night on the hook last weekend and enjoyed it very much.

Kevin

 

[Britannia]

This was probably my single biggest concern when buying Stillwater. I really didn't know how much she would cost to maintain. She's 29 years old and could cost me a lot if something big goes wrong. I completely understand why this is a stress point for trawler buyers.

It makes no sense to me to include moorage, insurance, property taxes, etc in the "upkeep" estimate. These can be figured out very accurately before the purchase. I knew these costs before I made the purchase - no "rule of thumb" required on these - just a bit of research. Even engine service costs and other routine servicing can be figured out fairly accurately. The biggest concern is how much to save for unanticipated costs - the engine/generator/stabilizers/steering rebuilds etc. I decided to start saving $1500 per month to build up a kitty for these eventualities. So far I haven't spent much and already have enough to cover one or two "biggies!" As the fund grows I'll be prepared to dig into it for upgrades as well (such as electronics). For a while I have just been making sure I have a good cushion.

Richard

(Edit) P.S. I also agree that making the estimate based on the purchase price can be misleading. An older boat is cheaper to purchase but unlikely to have a lower cost of maintenance than a newer one.

 

[Lou_tribal]

For me un-anticipated events are not part of the maintenance budget. It is like a car, you have a budget for maintenance, changing oil, air filters, brake pads, etc etc but having an accident and crashing your car is not a maintenance item.
In the same way for me maintenance is paint, engine maintenance with filters, oil changes, cleaning etc, things broken here and there like my toilet pump, or small electrical items etc but a main engine failure is not a maintenance item but a main event that should not occur in "normal" circumstances.

L.

 

[BandB]

For me un-anticipated events are not part of the maintenance budget. It is like a car, you have a budget for maintenance, changing oil, air filters, brake pads, etc etc but having an accident and crashing your car is not a maintenance item.
In the same way for me maintenance is paint, engine maintenance with filters, oil changes, cleaning etc, things broken here and there like my toilet pump, or small electrical items etc but a main engine failure is not a maintenance item but a main event that should not occur in "normal" circumstances.

L.

To me unanticipated events may be the most critical part of maintenance budget. It's easy to budget basic things and costs. I can look at the maintenance schedule and do that. But one must plan somehow, through a budget or a separate fund or something for major event. If one can't financially handle an major engine work when it's needed, they are out of boating.

 

[FF]

Stuff happens especially to lower priced gear.

But the big buck question is how is a blown engine handled?

 

[Gordon J]

All,

As flakey as it may be, the question was based on boat value, not purchase price. Part of my reason for posting this question was not for my information, or those of you with years of experience, but for those starting their boating career.

Yes the question is broad. Yes, each of us might have a slightly different definition of what to include in maintenance.

I disagree that If you have to ask you can't afford it. I think people want to make an informed decision. I am on my third boat and have never come close to the 10 percent rule.

Gordon

 

[Bacchus]

I have read numerous figures for boat upkeep, to include the oft quoted 10% of purchase price per year.

I wonder what folks on TF are paying for upkeep. Lets define that number as the AVERAGE annual cost of maintaining a boat. Upgrades, which are not required should not be included. For example, I chose to upgrade two chart plotters last fall even though the two I had worked. I would not include that number. I do not consider fuel, dockage or insurance to be maintenance.

Gordon
While your initial question seems like a simple one it obviously is more complex.
What I do for boating is similar to the exercise we (admiral & I) did before retiring...develop a line item budget.
If you currently Boat figure out what you currently spend then estimate each line item for a different vessel w +/- adjustments as appropriate.
You will likely get better cost numbers from TF members if you address specifics... bottom paint but you will need to qualify your situation...fresh or salt water, in the water all yr or 6 mos, warm or cold water, DIY or by yard, etc
Topside paint & gel coat repairs
Engine annual main fluids & filters, belts, impeller, heat xch maint, exh manifold & hose $ and expected life,
You get the idea

Some items go up for larger boats..maybe factor/ft
Other relatively fixed based on # of engines...single, twin, multiple gens, etc
Canvas repair / replacement... $/expected life + x% for annual repairs & refreshment...mine is $0...no canvas

You can include or exclude normal costs such as docking, fuel, insurance, etc but they're all costs of boating...nice to have an "all in" budget.

 

[Gordon J]

Bacchus,

I agree that this is complicated and the question too simple. The instruments available to us here to survey are not sophisticated enough to permit multivariate sampling. So I tried to phrase the question so that folks could apply some of their own interpretation. Some will spend lots of money to keep their boat in new condition, while others might not be so picky or have the money to do so.

The point is, many, including some on this forum have quoted the 10% figure. I know most on my dock and based on informal survey's of my friends here, think the figure is way overblown. I was just trying to produce a rough magnitude that gets at the question for folks who have little to no experience. Stuff happens and engines have to be replaced or rebuilt. That, in my mind is maintenance. I am currently painting my boat, top to bottom. I bought the boat a year ago knowing that I would have to do that and calculated that expense into the purchase price. I would not include that in my maintenance figures. An AC went out two months after purchase, and I would include that as a maintenance expense.

I think we are trying to overthink the exercise and yet I agree that tying maintenance to boat value is maybe a dumb way of thinking about it. I was merely trying to use what seemingly is an oft quoted metric of tying maintenance to boat cost/value.

I would love to see a study tying boat/engine brand to long term maintenance costs. Might make an interesting dissertation, but clearly beyond what we can do on our forum.

Gordon

 

[Bacchus]

So the "simple" answer has to be range...and it's probably 0.1% to 10+% depending on many factors.
Your definition of maintenance appears to be unanticipated vs anticipated expenses.
I'd prefer to know annual cost of ownership...some knowns, some estimates / avg annual, and allowances for unknowns.
I don't include things like eng replacement or rebuilds as I've boated 30+ yes- 3 boats and never have had to do a rebuild.
Everyone's situation is unique and nearly impossible to Peg a single $# that others won't vary from...significantly...and argue with.

A Check list w a range would be a very useful tool to allow folks to do their own way based on their situation