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Old 12-23-2010, 07:26 PM   #61
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

To hijack this thread even further...

Marin, you are extolling the virtues of Bristol, and I'm very interested in your comments. Our boat currently has Cetol (had it when we purchased her) and I'm happy with the look, although many are not. Cetol is considered to be an easy way of maintaining the teak, so I'm wondering how they compare? We need to do something in the spring and any advice would be appreciated.


I'm also interested in your comments about the Rocna, as we also need to replace our Danforth that has always been a source of worry for me. My brother (I have to consider his wishes since he is half owner) likes the Manson supreme. Any thoughts between those two very similar designs?


Our boat is on Vancouver Island and we tend to cruise the Desolation Sound area.
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Old 12-23-2010, 07:56 PM   #62
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Bristol is great stuff BUT..... it is rather exacting to use. The mixture has to be very accurate, and the application techniques can take a bit of time to master. It is extremely thin--- the consistency of diesel fuel--- and if one gets even a little too liberal with its application on non-horizontal surfaces runs and sags can readily occur. Even the brushing technique is somewhat demanding--- you can put on multiple coats in a day but pull the brush over the coat you're applying one too many times and you get brush streaks, even with a foam brush. In short, it takes an effort to master, but if you make the effort, in my opinion there is no more durable finish. I have met people who had a lot of trouble with it and were not at all happy with it, but on talking to them it became apparent to me that they had erred either in its mixture or its application.

On the advice of the most experienced shipwrights on the Grand Banks owner's forum we now use Bristol in conjunction with CPES, and this has improved the adherence and longevity of the Bristol finish by quite a bit.

There have been several discussions about the Rocna, pro and con, on the forum and a search of the archives should unearth them. The Manson is more or less the same design, as is the Sarca (I don't know if the Sarca is available in the US, however.) Rocna proponents claim there are some design differences betwen it and the Manson and these differences make the Rocna the better anchor. To me these differences are pretty subtle so I don't know that I totally agree with that.

The one thing I don't like about the Manson--- and apparently nobody else does either as nobody seems to use it--- is the slot in the shank that allows you to attach the rode to a shackle fastened through the slot. The theory is that if your anchor becomes caught on bottom debris you can pull the rode the other direction, the shackle slides down the slot to the fluke end, and you can pull the anchor out backwards. It's a good idea in theory but I have read many user reports that say that when the wind or current shifted their boat around their set anchor, the shackle slid down the slot and the boat pulled the anchor out of the bottom. The Manson has a hole at at the top of the shank under the end of the slot for a shackle and this is where everyone seems to attach the rode.

If we feel there is a chance the anchor could hang up we use a trip line shackled to the hole in the top of the Rocna's spade fluke that was put there for that purpose. (The big hole in the shank at the fluke end is for attaching a tandem anchor if one uses that technique.)

If I was in the market for a new anchor today and the Rocna was not available I would try to get a Sarca before I got a Manson. The Sarca incorporates the same slot in the shank, but from user reports I've seen the overall Sarca design is more effective than the Manson's.

But the differences so far as I've been able to determine between the three are pretty nit-picky. You either like the spade-fluke, rollbar design or you don't.
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:20 PM   #63
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Quote:
Marin wrote:

Bristol is great stuff BUT..... it is rather exacting to use. The mixture has to be very accurate, and the application techniques can take a bit of time to master.
I conur with Marin. Once you get on to it, it goes on very fast.* By the time I have finished at the bow I'm almost ready to start over at the stern.* No sanding between coats, and I can get about3 coats on in one day.* In August 07 I put 7 coats on in 2 days.* Still looks good, and I get compliments on it.* Probably do a couple ot top coats in the summer.

A couple of things about it. It needs a total seal all the way down to what the would is attached.* Just hold the masking tape off the wood about 1/16 to 1/8".* The masking and preparing is similar to doing varnish.* It can save you 4-5 days in
the application.* So far so good.

*
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:39 PM   #64
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Hiya,
** Not wanting to throw a monkey wrench into the works but I've had good success in the past with Pratt & Lambert UVA Spar varnish.* I've NOT used it in severe conditions.
http://www.prattandlambert.com/pdf/p...heets/7901.pdf
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Old 12-23-2010, 10:39 PM   #65
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Let me help you sell your boat!!!

I bought a Manson Supreme (slightly undersized) and only consider it so so.* When it sets I'm frequently not sure it's set. We had a Bruce on our last boat and on two occasions we had to drag it a bit before it set but I hear that's unusual. Worked fine on the other 20 or so times we anchored. My XYZ Extreme rarely sets but when it does it seems ready for anything. Used it in a 55 knot gale in Allison Harbor BC. No drag at all and the bow swung back and forth jerking the rode hard all day and night. The 18 lb steel Danforth w forged shank has always worked perfectly. Sets fast and solid even at short scope. I tried a Forfjord (only 25lbs) and could'nt get it to set on a hard river bottom in Rocky Pass. Gave up and put the Danforth down and it hooked right up. The Forfjord is the anchor the fishermen like. Seventy five % have them. Most of the rest use Claws. If I keep my smaller boat I'm going to get a Fortress for most anchoring use w very little chain and a capstan to pull it up to the chain. If I get a bigger boat (32-36') I'll use a 44 lb claw.
As to the finishing I think it's important to get as much of the woods natural oil out of the surface and then seal the open grain w a bit of your favorite oil or a little of the varnish you intent to use, some wood preservative and lots of turpentine. The following coats should have less and less turpentine, still a little wood preservative w more and more Varnish until the last coat is 100% Varnish. The trick is to build up a barrier* under the surface that prevents moisture from getting underneath the top film.
I tried System Three. It's a very thin and hard coating that may be a bit similar to Bristol in that one can recoat after about an hour without samding so many coats can be applied in one day and I found out the finish is very thin. It did not hold up well and I suspect I failed in some aspect of the prep. I got it for the cap rail as it is subjected to lots of abraision. Now I use Linseed oil, wood preservative and turpentine. I think if one uses oil based coatings it's much better to use turpentine than solvents, mineral spirits or paint thinner. All the above is from my own experience and of my own opinion.

Marin said:
" It's significant to me that the people who most vehemently defend old stuff are themselves old (either in years or in attitude and outlook)."
I'm not going to say it isn't so but I did just have my 71st birthday.
And I don't fly hang gliders anymore.

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 11:47:27 PM
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Old 12-24-2010, 04:31 AM   #66
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

It takes at least 2 different style anchors to co cruising.

BOTH SHOULD BE HEAVY , as a minimum a pound for every foot , and double that for a roomaran or bloat boat .

Most folks do not worry much about wave action as they anchor inshore , so windage is King!

The Danforth and Bruce operate the same , the CQR is different .

What ever you chose get the REAL anchor , not a cast or stamped copy from China or India.
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:02 AM   #67
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:If I get a bigger boat (32-36') I'll use a 44 lb claw.
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My 44 # claw....(20KG)
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Old 12-24-2010, 01:04 PM   #68
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

If I lost my perfectly acceptable Bruce, I'd go Rocna no questions asked. And as FF says, go heavy.*IMHO when it comes to anchor selection,*go at least one and better yet, two sizes larger.

I'm with Marin on "old," except for a few things, I much prefer new new gadgets in things like cars,* boats,* kitchens*and*instruments. I love old jade, silver stuff, and 3 Stooges flicks and Clint Eastwood westerns. But gawd I detest new phones* every 6 months.
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Old 12-24-2010, 01:35 PM   #69
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

I love old jade, silver stuff, and 3 Stooges flicks and Clint Eastwood westerns. But gawd I detest new phones* every 6 months.
I have no issue with "old" as in collector, antique, sentimental, etc.* I have old vehicles, guns, guitars, etc. for these very reasons.

When I say "old sucks" I mean stuff that has to work and work right.* Like boats, engines, radars, radios, jetliners, toasters, computers, phones, cars or trucks that you have to depend on, and so forth.

I still have the first new vehicle I ever bought, a 1973 Land Rover.* I keep it running (when I have time)and I really like it.* It--- or rather the capstan winch on the front of it--- is why I live in the PNW today, work for Boeing, fly floatplanes, have boats, and have visited and worked in over 30 countires.* So the old Land Rover has a lot of sentimental value to me.*

It was my only vehicle for the first ten years of its life and it never let me down once during that ten years.* But today, there's no way I would depend it day in and day out in tdoay's traffic conditions and speeds.* It's "old" and so has been relegated to live out its life in the peace and quiet of the garage with a run every now than into the mountains to remind it (and me) of the good old days.

The photos were taken during a six-week trip to the Yukon in 1977 with a college friend ( I shipped the Land Rover to the mainland and back to Hawaii for the trip).* It was during this trip that the capstan winch on the front changed the entire direction of my life.
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Old 12-28-2010, 08:16 PM   #70
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*
It was during this trip that the capstan winch on the front changed the entire direction of my life.

*
Aww fer crying out loud, you can't leave us hanging like that,* Tell the rest of the story..............................

*
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Old 12-28-2010, 09:13 PM   #71
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Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Quote:
Arctic Traveller wrote:Marin wrote:
It was during this trip that the capstan winch on the front changed the entire direction of my life.
Aww fer crying out loud, you can't leave us hanging like that,* Tell the rest of the story..............................
It's far too long and I'm already accused of being overly wordy on stuff that actually applies to boats.* So we'll just leave it at the fact that the winch is directly responsible for everything that's happened to me since whatever day it was in August, 1977.

I will, however, show you a photo of the winch that changed my life



-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 29th of December 2010 03:16:49 AM
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Old 12-29-2010, 04:32 AM   #72
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

"including a 50' Nordhavn one dock over--- now have Rocnas or other new-generation anchors. "

This stupidity is known as 'Bestitis" ,

the fond dream that simply spending loads of money on something "new" will save the effort of learning seamanship.

Anchors, GPS ,AIS , Radar and Pod drives all are expected to make up for never reading Chapmans.

Anchor our , and travel with big fenders , if you don't want to greet these folks over your rub rail.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:31 PM   #73
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Quote:
FF wrote:

"including a 50' Nordhavn one dock over--- now have Rocnas or other new-generation anchors. "

This stupidity is known as 'Bestitis" ,

the fond dream that simply spending loads of money on something "new" will save the effort of learning seamanship.

Anchors, GPS ,AIS , Radar and Pod drives all are expected to make up for never reading Chapmans.

Anchor our , and travel with big fenders , if you don't want to greet these folks over your rub rail.
FF---* I can't make judgements on your engine comments since I don't know all that much about them.* So I'll leave the "corrections"to your engine posts to people who do.

But the above comment is about one of the dumbest, most ill-informed statements I've seen frrom you yet.* I'm not even going to bother refuting it in detail because I can't imagine anyone who knows anything about boating--- even just a little bit--- giving it any credibility whatsoever.

Stick with what you do know, which so far as I can tell is how to use Junkyard Wars techniques to build a boat.* At that, I gather, you are very good.

*
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:45 PM   #74
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

"Anchors, GPS ,AIS , Radar and Pod drives all are expected to make up for never reading Chapmans."

So, if we are to apply FF style*"logic" to that statement, reading "Chapman(s)" will eliminate the need for ground tackle, electronic navigation aids, and modern methods of propulsion.
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:41 PM   #75
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Rick,
That makes less sense than what FF said. Any fool can determine that what FF is saying is that all the latest trinkets and new generation stuff won't make up for good seamanship.
What could be said is that old and outdated equipment combined w good seamanship can be better than an assembledge of new state of the art stuff. Standing watch is better than adjusting the range on your GPS anchor drag feature. Point is that you NEED good seamanship but you don't NEED the lasest do-dads. I wouldn't want to go through Rocky Pass W of Petersburg without GPS but I could. My dad did it many times long before GPS.
FF expresses himself strangely sometimes but here I thing he makes a good point and your responses Marin and Rick are a bit crude and rude and thoughtless.
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:04 PM   #76
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Quote:
Marin wrote:


Marin wrote:
It's far too long and I'm already accused of being overly wordy on stuff that actually applies to boats.*
Just curious how many words can you type per*minute and how many fingers do you use?

*
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:15 PM   #77
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

There is alot going on here, and sometimes it can be a little heated.* The problem with written communications is that there is no inflection or expression.* There really does not seam to be any reason for less than civil discourse.* There is much knowledge to be shared.* No one has a corner on the market on experience or knowledge.* I know I don't.* I respect the depth of knowledge found here from RickB, Marin, Eric, FF and others* I know that I have been wrong, but one instance*RickB told me to get out more and look around.* He was right, and I appreciated his pointjng it out.* No offense taken.* It was not personal.* I think we can leave the personal attack stuff out of it, and we will all be better for it.

It kind of reminds me when I walked up on one of our jobs and found the drywall hangers pouting and grumbling.* The plumbers were also pouting and grumbling.* One of the biggest, roughest looking drywall guy said there was an argument.* I asked them why it got out of hand.* He said the plumbers were rude to us first.* I just said that I would send them all home if they couldn't straighten it out.* They quit grumbling.
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Old 12-29-2010, 03:01 PM   #78
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:FF expresses himself strangely sometimes but here I thing he makes a good point and your responses Marin and Rick are a bit crude and rude and thoughtless.
For the most part, FF is living in a long-gone world.* His interpretation of what is "new" is what most of the rest of the world already considers old.

Old folks probably figure that in order to fly a modern jetiner, all the training that was once considered essential thirty, forty, fifty years ago is still essential.* It's not.* More and more airlines are starting to do what Emirates Airline and others have been doing for quite awhile.* Emirates, recently rated the best international airline in the world, takes pilot candidates with the right educational background and trains them from the outset to be 777 and A380 flight crew members.* They never see a Cessna or Piper or Robin trainer. The first time they get their hands on a "plane" is when they step into a 777 or A380 flight simulator.* Technology in the training, the simulators, and the planes themselves has eliminated the need for all that Private Pilot/Commercial Pilot/Instrument Pilot stick and rudder stuff.* You still have to know a degree of it, but you don't have to know or experience it to the extent you used to in order to fly a current-generation jetliner.

The fact is that new technology--- which most older people tend to inherently distrust--- is rapidly replacing the need for old-style training.

FF will probably come back with a 1950s reason why technology-based flight-- automated flight if you will--- is Bad.* But the Predators that have been flying over Iraq and Afghanistan for years now have been flown by kids at desks at bases in the US using glorified game controllers and video monitors.* Airliners already "talk" to their operators' maintenance bases in real time no matter where they are flying over the planet, tell them what's wrong, what parts will be needed to fix it, and what tools will be needed to install the parts when the plane arrives.* It's no stretch at all to fully automated commercial flight.* There are reasons why we aren't there yet but they are human reason, not technological reasons.

The exact same thing can be said of boats.* While the occasional boating accident by a boater with no clue about much of anything makes the news now and then, the reality is that-- in the US, it's different in Europe--- anyone with the money can buy any boat they want and operate it.* No seamanship training is required.

And judging by what we've observed and heard in dock conversations in our own boating in our waters, more and more boats are being operated exactly this way.* Person buys a boat--- 40, 50 feet, whatever--- loads it up with all sorts of technology--- autopilot, thrusters, remote controls, GPS, radar, TracVision, etc.--- learns to operate the technology, and goes boating.* And 99 percent of these people get out, take their cruise, and get home with no problems whatsoever.* They don't know how to tie a bowline, they couldn't tell you what a green and red striped buoy means, and they don't know any of the stuff in Chapman's.

What they DO know is how to run the technology.* The ones who get in trouble don't.* The technology tells them everything they need to know and does everything they need to do.* And the reality is--- it works.* Boaters are doing it all the time, and even newer technology-- like pod drives--- is making it easier and easier.* If you've got the right technology and know how to use it, you don't need to know much else.

That's not quite the same thing as saying you don't HAVE to know much else, because there are aspects of boating that technology doesn't deal with, at least not yet.

But, like manual transmissions in vehicles, seamanship is becoming an unnecessary requirement if the goal is to safely get a boat from Point A to Point B.

My wife and I use charts and plot courses and have all sorts of stuff on board to help us interpret navaids and light signals.* We have and use a magnetic compass.* We also have radar and multiple GPS plotters and depth sounders and knot meters.* While we do not have an autopilot or computer controlled, GPS-linked pod drives, the reality is that we could dispense completely with the paper charts, the plotting tools, the compass, and all the stuff about navaids and horn signals, all the stuff in Chapman's and whatnot and it would not make one bit of difference to what we do with the boat.* I cannot think of anywhere we have taken our boat in the twelve-plus years we have owned it--- any harbors, any marinas, any anchorages in the San Juans, Gulf Islands, and Desolation Sound--- that we could not have gotten to and into using only the electronics we have on board.* And our equipment is not the latest stuff.

And if we had a pod-drive boat like the GB41, we would not even have to know how to maneuver with props and rudders at all in order to dock the thing.* All we'd have to learn is how to set and manipulate the simple device that controls the pods.

The stock retort from the FF crowd is, what do you do when the technology breaks?* The answer is dirt simple--- you design it so it won't, and then design in enough redundancy so that if it does, technology backs up technology.* We do it now with airliners.* Doing it in a boat would be no different.
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Old 12-29-2010, 03:06 PM   #79
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:
Just curious how many words can you type per*minute and how many fingers do you use?


While I assume your question is facetious, I do a lot of writing in the course of my work (scripts, communications with airlines, etc.) and I also write books.* I have no idea how many wpm I type but I type very fast using the standard fingering of touch typing.* The long reply to Eric's post I just sent in above took me about ten minutes to write.* I knocked it out it while taking a break from working on the book I am currently writing (Boeing shuts down between Christmas Eve day and the day after New Years day so I'm off this week.)
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Old 12-29-2010, 03:13 PM   #80
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RE: Let me help you sell your boat!!!

Marin,
*I was serious. It takes me about as long to type my stupid little posts.
Didn't grow up with the technology. I have been told I have perfect penmanship cursive*
You amaze me. I think I need one of those *Dragon speak.* You know the computer types what you say.*

SD
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