Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-22-2015, 11:16 AM   #1
Member
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: U.S.
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 5
length

Many boat charges are based upon length (e.g. haul out, bottom painting, dockage, etc.). Is this typically the LWL or the LOA (including swim platform and pulpit) or the nominal length based upon the manufacturer's model
__________________
Advertisement

Hydrophilic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 11:30 AM   #2
Guru
 
No Mast's Avatar
 
City: Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Country: US
Vessel Name: Moana Huaka'i
Vessel Model: Selene 53
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 816
Docking is LOA usually.

For bottom paint I would only include the length of what needs to be painted. If someone wanted to charge me for bottom paint based on length including my bow pulpit I think I'd have an issue with it.
__________________

No Mast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 11:55 AM   #3
Guru
 
pilothouse king's Avatar


 
City: St. Lucie VILLAGE -NOT- Port St. Lucie!!!!!
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 15' Hobie Power Skiff w/90hp Yamaha-owned 28 years. Also a 2001 Bayliner 3788 that I took in trade
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mast View Post
Docking is LOA usually.

For bottom paint I would only include the length of what needs to be painted. If someone wanted to charge me for bottom paint based on length including my bow pulpit I think I'd have an issue with it.
Yet the Mo _ _ _ _ _ _ s try don't they?!!!! I've had many a fight with boatyards over this issue. Why the hell you trying to charge for overhangs that you're not painting? Particularly bothered me was when I took in my 15' tender to paint and they would charge me for 15' but the boat is only 4' wide. If the normal boats they paint ARE 15' wide- then why aren't they charging me for 4' instead of 15'? The amount of actual paint used was tiny, but they charged for huge. For sailboats where there's a pretty small footprint forward with narrow beams- it was rather galling to be charged the same as powerboats which were wide their whole length.
You know what I learned? That some boatyard managers (mostly in Ft. Lauderdale and that Greek yard in St. Augustine!!!) just don't respect you unless you put up a fight complete with yelling and screaming- THEN they like you and give you a good deal. They remind me of my Italian ex-wife!!!
Do we always have to fight first, is that what turns you on? Apparently so.
pilothouse king is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 12:07 PM   #4
GFC
Guru
 
GFC's Avatar
 
City: Tri Cities, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Beachcomber
Vessel Model: Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,703
That's why I paint the bottom of my boat myself.
I don't have to pay anyone and I know how many coats of paint go on.
__________________
Mike and Tina
Beachcomber 1995 Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
GFC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 02:52 PM   #5
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
I'd have to go and find my invoice - but if I recall correctly, the last time I had my sailboat bottom painted my invoice was itemized - including things like haulout, gallons of paint used, rags, disposal, labor, etc. I don't believe it was a fixed cost by length.

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 05:05 PM   #6
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,820
One of the nice things about the work boat yard I use, bottom paintings price is paint, plus roller cover, a pan liner, roll of masking tape, maybe a brush, and actual labor time.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 08:41 AM   #7
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,531
The real con comes with beach ball fat boats.

Sorry sir your 40 ft boat is to fat so will require a 50 ft slip to fit.

And you pay for the 50 ft!
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 09:00 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Captain K's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Shores, Alabama
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Holly Day
Vessel Model: Marine Trader 44
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 288
LOA, according to the USCG and other reputable sources (Chapman's, Dictionary of Nautical Knowledge, etc.) is the length measured from the forward most part of the stem to the aftermost part of the transom, NOT including swim platforms, bow pulpits, or anything else protruding from the hull. The single exception is when the swim platform is part of the molded hull structure, in which case it is included. LOA is among quite a few nautical terms which, colloquially, are often used incorrectly. This official definition will be lost on our dull friends who operate boat yards and marinas, so you may well consider not even butting your head against that brick wall.
Captain K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 09:06 AM   #9
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,920
The better places usually specify in writing what the intent is...but there is no standardization from docking to painting....always best to ask and negotiate if necessary.

However, many places will stiff you as respect you if you question their pricing. Try to find out what works best for each place before you walk in.....
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 09:54 AM   #10
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain K View Post
LOA, according to the USCG and other reputable sources (Chapman's, Dictionary of Nautical Knowledge, etc.) is the length measured from the forward most part of the stem to the aftermost part of the transom, NOT including swim platforms, bow pulpits, or anything else protruding from the hull. The single exception is when the swim platform is part of the molded hull structure, in which case it is included. LOA is among quite a few nautical terms which, colloquially, are often used incorrectly. This official definition will be lost on our dull friends who operate boat yards and marinas, so you may well consider not even butting your head against that brick wall.
Well, first you misquoted as forward most part of the stern to the aftermost part of the transom would be 0" as the transom is the surface that forms the stern. Stern is the aft most part of the boat.

Now, second, the Chapman definition of what is included and excluded no longer holds in all situations. The USCG and other organizations have formed their own rules of what counts and doesn't in LOA. And marinas very clearly spell it out for their purposes. And all that makes sense. If you're talking about the actual structure of the boat then excluding platforms and pulpits and other extensions makes sense. If there is an integral platform that is part of the structure then it's different. But when you're looking at the dock space required, then everything must be counted. You have boats out there with 5' swim platforms. As a result just for clarity, most builders now show both numbers. LOA without and LOA with. Some refer to LOA with as maximum length. But marinas are very specific in defining it for their purposes and to argue would be foolhearty because you'd be wrong.

Of course then we complicate it more with waterline length tossed in and model numbers. It is important to know each measurement. As an example of where it can be an issue, a 54' Grand Banks has an LOA without extensions of 54'4" but a maximum length of 61'5". A few canals behind me have maximum lengths of 55' for the slips. A man recently bought a GB 54' only to find out he couldn't keep it at his house. And, yes, when you have narrow canals an extra 7' sticking out makes a huge difference.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 10:26 AM   #11
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Country: pinellas
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,199
I had no problem getting the yard to agree to measure the bottom and charge for that.
bayview is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 10:40 AM   #12
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Well, first you misquoted as forward most part of the stern to the aftermost part of the transom would be 0" as the transom is the surface that forms the stern. Stern is the aft most part of the boat.

If you read Captain K's post again you will see it was you that misread his post. He used the word "stem" not "stern" to describe the forward most part of the boat.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 10:56 AM   #13
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,996
Greetings,
Mr. CP is correct Mr. BB. Have another coffee...
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 10:56 AM   #14
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,175
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
If you read Captain K's post again you will see it was you that misread his post. He used the word "stem" not "stern" to describe the forward most part of the boat.
You are correct and my apologies to him. Sure looked like stern with the font I'm using. Even now, only notice the difference side by side. Maybe I'm older than I thought...losing my vision....
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 11:04 AM   #15
Guru
 
hmason's Avatar
 
City: Westport, CT
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Magic
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 46 Europa
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,904
A boat has many lengths:
Builders length: 46
Calling ahead for a slip: 44
Telling your friends: 50
Washing it yourself: 60
Waxing it yourself: WTF!!
__________________
Howard
Magic, 1996 Grand Banks Europa
Westport, CT and Stuart, FL
hmason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 11:13 AM   #16
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain K View Post
LOA, according to the USCG and other reputable sources (Chapman's, Dictionary of Nautical Knowledge, etc.) is the length measured from the forward most part of the stem to the aftermost part of the transom, NOT including swim platforms, bow pulpits, or anything else protruding from the hull. The single exception is when the swim platform is part of the molded hull structure, in which case it is included.

Well, yes, but...

Our boat is nominally 42' (model name) and the manufacturer's stated LOA is 44' 6" "length overall w/o swim platform"). The bow pulpit is sorta-kinda part of the hull, not an additional bolt-on, so probably all well and good up to that point even though it differs somewhat from the above.

But our CG document says 46.2' -- nearly equating to the manufacturer's spec of 46' 1" WITH swim platform, which is not molded in an integral part of the hull structure.

Doesn't make much difference to me one way or the other, just demonstrating that "official " definitions and reality sometimes vary, anyway.

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 11:15 AM   #17
Guru
 
angus99's Avatar
 
City: Signal Mtn., TN
Country: US
Vessel Name: Stella Maris
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmason View Post
A boat has many lengths:
Builders length: 46
Calling ahead for a slip: 44
Telling your friends: 50
Washing it yourself: 60
Waxing it yourself: WTF!!
angus99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 11:16 AM   #18
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmason View Post
A boat has many lengths:
Builders length: 46
Calling ahead for a slip: 44
Telling your friends: 50
Washing it yourself: 60
Waxing it yourself: WTF!!


From time to time we contemplate a larger boat. Then we spend a day or two washing, waxing, polishing and detailing and are convinced it is more than adequate for our mission.

B&B, if it is any consolation I read it properly the first time but after your post had to read it 3 more times. Had to be absolutely sure my bifocals where not deceiving me before stepping out on that limb
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 11:19 AM   #19
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,175
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmason View Post
A boat has many lengths:
Builders length: 46
Calling ahead for a slip: 44
Telling your friends: 50
Washing it yourself: 60
Waxing it yourself: WTF!!
I have to laugh as boat tales sometimes go like fish tales. What was paid for it. Every aspect. I knew a dealer on the lake well and one day I was there, he'd just encountered the strangest situation. Customer comes in and says I want to buy a boat just like the one Jason bought. Same deal, everything. So, dealer excited as he'd about to make the easiest sale of his life. He immediately writes up a sales contract identical to Jason's. The customer is outraged when he sees $34,000. Yells that Jason only paid $30,000 and he can't believe the dealer would try to take advantage of him like that. Finally with his integrity on the line, he gets a copy of Jason's contract and shows it to the customer. Now the customer is irate but at Jason, calling him every name he can think of. He calms down a bit and apologizes to the dealer. They says, can you give me $1 off so I can tell that $%##$ I got a better deal than he did. I won't tell him the amount. The dealer says, "Ok. Now you know he'll come to complain so when he does I'll refund him a dollar."
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2015, 11:25 AM   #20
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,175
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post

From time to time we contemplate a larger boat. Then we spend a day or two washing, waxing, polishing and detailing and are convinced it is more than adequate for our mission.

B&B, if it is any consolation I read it properly the first time but after your post had to read it 3 more times. Had to be absolutely sure my bifocals where not deceiving me before stepping out on that limb
I read it three times too because I knew something was wrong. But it's like proofreading your own work. Once I read it as "STERN" it was fixed in my brain as such.

Too small when lots of guests
Too big when paying slip fees
Too small when conditions turn rough
Too big when maneuvering in tight areas
Too small when preparing a fancy meal
Too big when cooking for two

That's the thing. All are compromises. People come searching for the "perfect" boat and you just have to tell them to start over as there is no such thing.

But, I have to ask those living on land. Do any of you have a "perfect" home? We love ours and consider it perfect for us. But there are days it's too big and days it's too small.
__________________

BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012