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Old 04-11-2016, 11:17 AM   #1
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"Kinship" Questions....

[QUOTE=RT Firefly;432343]Greetings,
Mr. dh. I think it's time to end this thread. After all you ARE a trawler owner.QUOTE]

Done.

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One of my "new" favorite boats! Such a fine beauty... Congrats, Dave!!

Wirth cruise stated at 8 knots... I bet if you did 6.5 to 7.25 knots your nmpg would be 33 to 50 percent improved. Maybe in the 2 + nmpg range. Can't beat that mileage with a beauty such as this boat!
Thanks Art. On the way to Gig Harbor we ran at 1400 rpm giving us 7 knots at 2 gph. At that rpm, it was very quiet and comfortable. The original owner said that he always ran at 10 knots. He was never concerned about costs however.

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From a selfish perspective, because I am an admitted diesel dummy, I hope you continue the thread and take us along on all your new little discoveries, as you transition from 40 to near 400 HP.

It looks like some typical April weather, with a gentle mix of everything but snow, to get you started on your new lifestyle. "Hmmm...where to hang the wet gear in the PH???"

Is "Kinship" your chosen name or that of the PO?
Thanks Hawgwash. New thread. I initially asked a lot of questions about a potential future boat, now there are going to be lots of specific questions about this boat.

Just discovered late last night that there is a heater vent in one of the hanging lockers in the forward cabin connected to the controller in the head. The locker door is vented. I can only assume it is so when you hang things that might be wet, they will get dried out.

"Kinship" is the new name (not put on yet, but registered with the USCG). The prior name is "Dream Weaver" (yes, the owners name was Weaver) and it has yet to be removed.
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Old 04-11-2016, 11:36 AM   #2
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Wow - Post # 2... I feel special! - LOL


Yup - 2 nmpg at 7 knots! 2.5 +/- nmpg at 5.5 to 6 knots - bet cha!
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Old 04-11-2016, 11:39 AM   #3
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Fuel transfer pump...

The NP 43 has two fuel tanks. Normally, they are 190 gal (although shipyard tag in Chinese and English says they are 250 gal). Kinship has a fuel transfer pump between the two tank the line for the fuel transfer pump leave at the base of the tanks and there is a valve by each tank.

In the pilothouse, there is a spring load toggle that controls the pump. hold it to Port and it pumps fuel from the Starboard tank to the Port tank. Hold it to Starboard and it goes the other way.

So a couple of questions.... Would there be anything bad about changing out that toggle? If I am transferring fuel I have to hold the toggle because as soon as I release it, the pump stops. I was wondering about a rocker switch with an indicator light maybe? The fuel transfer pump has its own circuit breaker so there is little chance of engaging the pump accidentally. The biggest concern would be that I might simply forget to turn it off, hence the idea of an indicator light. I have also heard of using a timer switch instead, I just don't think that I could find one to fit on the helm.

Secondly, if I have full fuel in one tank, and near empty in another, and I open both valves for the fuel transfer line and don't run the pump, will fuel tend to equalize in the tanks? Without a pump, they would. But would the pump impeller keep that from happening and would that cause any harm to the Jabsco fuel pump?
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Old 04-11-2016, 11:51 AM   #4
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Looks like a great boat! I'm a sailor too but can't bring myself to say ex-sailor. I'm keeping my small sailboat for those times I really need a fix. I know what you mean about bending into the engine room as I'm 6'4". I don't think I would have the cajones to careen my boat on a rock like in your avatar either. lol.

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Old 04-11-2016, 11:52 AM   #5
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The NP 43 has two fuel tanks. Normally, they are 190 gal (although shipyard tag in Chinese and English says they are 250 gal). Kinship has a fuel transfer pump between the two tank the line for the fuel transfer pump leave at the base of the tanks and there is a valve by each tank.

In the pilothouse, there is a spring load toggle that controls the pump. hold it to Port and it pumps fuel from the Starboard tank to the Port tank. Hold it to Starboard and it goes the other way.

So a couple of questions.... Would there be anything bad about changing out that toggle? If I am transferring fuel I have to hold the toggle because as soon as I release it, the pump stops. I was wondering about a rocker switch with an indicator light maybe? The fuel transfer pump has its own circuit breaker so there is little chance of engaging the pump accidentally. The biggest concern would be that I might simply forget to turn it off, hence the idea of an indicator light. I have also heard of using a timer switch instead, I just don't think that I could find one to fit on the helm.

Secondly, if I have full fuel in one tank, and near empty in another, and I open both valves for the fuel transfer line and don't run the pump, will fuel tend to equalize in the tanks? Without a pump, they would. But would the pump impeller keep that from happening and would that cause any harm to the Jabsco fuel pump?
Not sure bout last question re auto-equalized fuel levels with pump in way.

I do however, recommend that for the fuel pump toggle you either keep it as is or make sure that there is not only a (flashing bright) light but also some sort of sound (mellow bell that sounds in five second intervals - or so - would be fine) to not let you or wife forget about the transfer pump being on. I know that if I has a toggle that stayed on unless manually shut off and it had no sound/flashing-light alarms... eventually I would forget while accomplishing other things.
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:02 PM   #6
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Looks like a great boat! I'm a sailor too but can't bring myself to say ex-sailor. I'm keeping my small sailboat for those times I really need a fix. I know what you mean about bending into the engine room as I'm 6'4". I don't think I would have the cajones to careen my boat on a rock like in your avatar either. lol.

Kevin
Isn't there room for you both to reconstruct the sole over engine compartment so there are huge hinged (or lift-out removable) hatch doors to open so you can stand upright much of the time while working around engine? It may cost a boat dollar or more if done by others, and probably bit o' pia to accomplish yourself... but in my opinion... well worth it in the long run. That's one of the "no-go" items for me in every boat I ever purchase. Either I can stand up at engine - or - next boat please!


BTW - I'm 64 yr, 6'1", life long weight lifter; avg 245 lb in shape body weight... I don't bend real easy - but, I also don't break! - LOL
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:31 PM   #7
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Isn't there room for you both to reconstruct the sole over engine compartment so there are huge hinged (or lift-out removable) hatch doors to open so you can stand upright much of the time while working around engine?
Where would you start with the Pioneer chainsaw, Art?
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:39 PM   #8
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Greetings,
Mr. H. for "finish" work it's best to use an electric chain saw.

Mr. dh. I would suggest you not make any changes right away. Get to know the boat first. Sit back with an adult beverage and bask in the aura of your new mistress. I'd give it about 6 months of contemplation before changing her.

I fully appreciate the enthusiasm you're probably experiencing right now but....Patience grasshopper.

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Old 04-11-2016, 12:49 PM   #9
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Q1: that switch is a momentary contact switch and I guess they put it there to prevent you from forgetting you had it on, requiring you to hold it down to pump from one side to the other.

Q2: If the fuel transfer pump is a centrifugal pump, it would tend to equalize through the pump. If the pump is a gear pump, it won't since the gears have to be rotating to pass fuel.
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Old 04-11-2016, 01:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Isn't there room for you both to reconstruct the sole over engine compartment so there are huge hinged (or lift-out removable) hatch doors to open so you can stand upright much of the time while working around engine? It may cost a boat dollar or more if done by others, and probably bit o' pia to accomplish yourself... but in my opinion... well worth it in the long run. That's one of the "no-go" items for me in every boat I ever purchase. Either I can stand up at engine - or - next boat please!
Good suggestions Art. If you look at the picture that Hawgwash posted (thanks HW). There are lift out panels in the sole that run down the entire center of the saloon. They are the same width as the distance between aft settee to starboard and the aft dinette seating right in front of the door out to the cockpit. The one in the center is hinged, but the two panels aft of that and the one panel forward are lift out. The panels are only slightly wider than the engine and genset. There are removable aluminum supports between each of the panels so it is possible to open up the entire center of the saloon floor for working on the engine and genset. Because of the width of those panels, you still have to duck down and crawl to get to the sides of the engine however. Forward of the engine compartment the steps from the galley down to the companionway hinge up giving access to the front of the engine.

I was thinking last night that there should be a way to put hinges in a couple of of the lift out panels to make it easier to access. The biggest problem is that the very aft panel (right in front of the saloon door). Mounted on the aft bulkhead of the ER right below the door are the Racor filters. Below the filters is the manifold for the two fuel supply and fuel return lines to each fuel tank. To port and starboard are the fuel tanks with their sight tubes and the valves for the fuel transfer lines. To get to the sight tube valves and the fuel transfer valves, you have to lift the panel out of the way, then get down into the ER to be able to reach those valves. There really isn't enough room between the Racors aft and the Genset immediately forward two squeeze your hips (even my 25 year old 6'4" son, who is not lifting right now so is only about 190 pounds).

This is partly what prompted the question on the valves for the fuel transfer line. They are a pain to get to. If it would not create a problem leaving them open, I would tend to do that. If that is a bad idea, I have no problem leaving them closed.

The other way to easily transfer fuel from tank to tank, is use the fuel return lines. If the port tank is the full one, I can open the port tank supply line and close the fuel return line to the port tank. Leave the starboard fuel supply line closed and open the starboard fuel return line. The way it is setup, this would draw fuel from the port tank and return it to the starboard tank. It works great, but has an even higher chance of being forgotten if you aren't paying attention to the fuel gauges.

BTW, the fuel and water gauges seem to be reasonably accurate. Kinship also has a tank tender for all four tanks and it also seems to be pretty accurate.

Anyway, I would love some good hinges to use on that aft panel. On my sailboat, the engine cover had some stainless hinges that were designed like a lateral pintal. It would hinge but then if you slide it sideways you could remove it. That would be perfect for this and would be easy to install. If anyone knows of such a thing, please point me to it.

Edit: Just found this SeaDog hinge. This is what I was thinking of. I will check on the measurements.
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Old 04-11-2016, 01:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Mr. dh. I would suggest you not make any changes right away. Get to know the boat first. Sit back with an adult beverage and bask in the aura of your new mistress. I'd give it about 6 months of contemplation before changing her.
That is excellent advice. Before I do any modifications I have a list of items from the survey that I need to take care of as well as some basic maintenance items. It also makes sense not to make any changes in what is there until I actually understand it all and how we use it.
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Old 04-11-2016, 01:08 PM   #12
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Where would you start with the Pioneer chainsaw, Art?
That is a good question. Would have to spend time aboard measuring, planning, drawing sketches for figuring what/where cuts, braces, hinges, hatches, furniture movement[s] could become accomplished to make it an "open hatch" engine compartment. That said... it can probably be done without too much problem. Plenty work, but, no problem. That also said: Although I really like Dave's new boat in umpteen different ways... if no stand up room was possible to attain around and near the engine... that would be a death knell regarding purchase for me. It's one of my hard and fast rule regarding owning any boat. I love to get close and personal with my boat engines... sometimes even each day in very early morning. No stand up, then no go... one of my rules!

I can get things wide open in my Tolly's salon sole in a matter of seconds.

In addition to making servicing engines simple and comfortable to do... it is also great should an emergency down there need immediate attention while still at least intermittingly piloting from lower control station... if alone aboard while away from dock or moorage.

Big open hatch access to engines is good idea all the way around! IMHO! - LOL
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Old 04-11-2016, 01:15 PM   #13
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Good suggestions Art. If you look at the picture that Hawgwash posted (thanks HW). There are lift out panels in the sole that run down the entire center of the saloon. They are the same width as the distance between aft sette to starboard and the aft dinette seating right in front of the door out to the cockpit. The one in the center is hinged, but the two panels aft of that and the one panel forward are lift out. The panels are only slightly wider than the engine and genset. There are removable aluminum supports between each of the panels so it is possible to open up the entire center of the saloon floor for working on the engine and genset. Because of the width of those panels, you still have to duck down and crawl to get to the sides of the engine however. Forward of the engine compartment the steps from the galley down to the companionway hinge up giving access to the front of the engine.

I was thinking last night that there should be a way to put hinges in a couple of of the lift out panels to make it easier to access. The biggest problem is that the very aft panel (right in front of the saloon door). Mounted on the aft bulkhead of the ER right below the door are the Racor filters. Below the filters is the manifold for the two fuel supply and fuel return lines to each fuel tank. To port and starboard are the fuel tanks with their sight tubes and the valves for the fuel transfer lines. To get to the sight tube valves and the fuel transfer valves, you have to lift the panel out of the way, then get down into the ER to be able to reach those valves. There really isn't enough room between the Racors aft and the Genset immediately forward two squeeze your hips (even my 25 year old 6'4" son, who is not lifting right now so is only about 190 pounds).

This is partly what prompted the question on the valves for the fuel transfer line. They are a pain to get to. If it would not create a problem leaving them open, I would tend to do that. If that is a bad idea, I have no problem leaving them closed.

The other way to easily transfer fuel from tank to tank, is use the fuel return lines. If the port tank is the full one, I can open the port tank supply line and close the fuel return line to the port tank. Leave the starboard fuel supply line closed and open the starboard fuel return line. The way it is setup, this would draw fuel from the port tank and return it to the starboard tank. It works great, but has an even higher chance of being forgotten if you aren't paying attention to the fuel gauges.

BTW, the fuel and water gauges seem to be reasonably accurate. Kinship also has a tank tender for all four tanks and it also seems to be pretty accurate.

Anyway, I would love some good hinges to use on that aft panel. On my sailboat, the engine cover had some stainless hinges that were designed like a lateral pintal. It would hinge but then if you slide it sideways you could remove it. That would be perfect for this and would be easy to install. If anyone knows of such a thing, please point me to it.

Good - Dave! Carry on with pleasure "motor" boating!
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Old 04-11-2016, 02:48 PM   #14
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Dhays. For getting to filters, I remove covers so I can stand in front of gen set. No need to get on hands and knees. Changing tanks I open hinged hatch, go down stairs and am able to access valves, between the port side of gen-set and water heater. I still fit there pretty easily. Same procedure for using transfer pump. I don't have ability to transfer without going into engine room . Transferring water or fuel from heavy side to light side does not work to well, unless there is a great difference in levels. Always seems to go to low or heavy side, go figure! I usually monitor fuel level pretty close when tranferring, these days getting fuel in water is a no-no. I have found the level in the sight gauges to be very close to 10 gal per inch and that little pump moves about 5 gpm. The electronic fuel consumption readout and my tape measure are pretty close on fill ups. On both water and fuel tank sight tubes I keep a small piece of masking tape at fluid levels to keep track of usage. It is nice to have hinge on the one hatch, but I have never thought about hinging them all, no need for me. Wish there was an easier access for the dip-stick though. You could get a little eye hook and some string to hold that switch, but that might be too easy. Hope you are having fun.. Dan
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Old 04-11-2016, 06:47 PM   #15
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Just curious but I think my 1981 GB's water tanks and fuel tanks are self leveling or at least appear to be. Honestly thought that was the norm. Is there a good reason that they wouldn't be?
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Old 04-11-2016, 07:51 PM   #16
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A little dicey to guarantee the fuel will draw and return equally. The newer common rail QSB Cummins move a lot of fuel even though they don't burn so much. A friend with the same HP as mine, leaves all valves open and has no trouble, but it is an older B Series Cummins. I generally run 15 hours or so then just switch tanks. Whatever works!
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:11 PM   #17
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Dave,

I just found out you have your new boat. I feel a sorta kinship with you as my last sailboat, before moving to the dark side, was a Catalina 400, which I rank as one of my favorite boats. I still remember taking the first ride on my new trawler and thinking, "Is that all there is to this?" It was kinda boring compared to sailing but I do love the comfort, besides I couldn't raise the main anymore.

We should be at the public dock this coming Thursday, so if you are around come on down and see us. Maybe we can go out to dinner together. From there, we are heading to Dock Street Marina for our monthly Trawler Crawler cruise. You might want to think of joining the Trawler Crawlers, a good bunch of people. We have a few members who moor in Gig Harbor.
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:48 PM   #18
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Hi Dave, first congrats on your purchase from another Dave and soon to be, if all goes well, new owner. Have to tell you there is some weird name related karmic connection here! I am about to buy the eighth boat I have seriously considered over a 3 or 4 year search. first one doesn't count 'cause I wasn't looking to purchase when I saw it, it sort of lit the fuse, so really seven. Only spent serious time and money looking at two boats before signing a contract on Navigator. First one was a KK42 in the Keys called "Kinship". Second boat was the infamous N46 project in Lauderdale, "Dreamweaver". Make of that what you will but if we ever meet I will buy you a beer and ask you to explain how you ended up with both my boats!
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:35 PM   #19
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Here is what access in my engine room looks like. Seems pretty roomy huh? But getting to some of the stuff can be a challenge if your back is hurtin'. Boat yoga is a must for some jobs but regular engine checks are a breeze.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:20 AM   #20
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Dhays. For getting to filters, I remove covers so I can stand in front of gen set. No need to get on hands and knees. Changing tanks I open hinged hatch, go down stairs and am able to access valves, between the port side of gen-set and water heater. I still fit there pretty easily. Same procedure for using transfer pump. I don't have ability to transfer without going into engine room . Transferring water or fuel from heavy side to light side does not work to well, unless there is a great difference in levels. Always seems to go to low or heavy side, go figure! I usually monitor fuel level pretty close when tranferring, these days getting fuel in water is a no-no. I have found the level in the sight gauges to be very close to 10 gal per inch and that little pump moves about 5 gpm. The electronic fuel consumption readout and my tape measure are pretty close on fill ups. On both water and fuel tank sight tubes I keep a small piece of masking tape at fluid levels to keep track of usage. It is nice to have hinge on the one hatch, but I have never thought about hinging them all, no need for me. Wish there was an easier access for the dip-stick though. You could get a little eye hook and some string to hold that switch, but that might be too easy. Hope you are having fun.. Dan
I am having a great time Dan. We are at the Tacona Yacht Club outstation in Oro Bay on Anderson Island. My wife and son are playing a board game and I am trying to stay awake. I had my son drive the boat all the way down here and he docked the boat mostly by himself.

My tank valves may be farther aft than yours as I don't think I could reach them from the hinged hatch opening. I was going to fill up with fuel today but we got a late start.
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