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Old 04-06-2014, 03:27 PM   #21
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Perception, What I mean is boating is as affordable as you want it to be. We moved up an additional 16 feet of boat. 32 to 48, I set a price I wanted to pay and then said I have a 5 year plan and set another figure for what I thought it would take to get whatever boat I bought up to My standard. Well I got the boat for the price I wanted and so far I am not even to the halfway point for the money I allocated to get her to MY standard. I believe this to be because I found a sound boat at the right time. My punch list is now getting longer just for the fact the little things are getting done just because. An example is I want to add new faucets, not because they are faulty I just want to update the look. I would love to repaint the whole boat but just because the gel coat doesn't shine like the new boats around me, the cost outweighs the return.

The fixed cost of boating, Insurance, dockage, Communication/Entertainment costs Are factors but I just chalk that up to the cost of boating and it is no different then land based homes. I don't have Cable Tv on the boat, I watch Dvds and rabbit ears for tv. When we move aboard then I will probably get a KVH antenna but I will be getting rid of my land based expenses so I can justify the cost.
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Old 04-06-2014, 03:45 PM   #22
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One thing that should figure into the equation is how much you can use the boat. There is a level that if you're below, chartering or renting may be a good choice. If my boating was limited to two weeks once a year, one week another time, and two or three weekends, then I'd strongly consider chartering as it also allows you to further figure out what you like and want. While deciding what we wanted and then waiting for the build, we've chartered quite a bit.
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Old 04-06-2014, 03:46 PM   #23
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Another "P" word PERSPECTIVE
It depends where you are coming from as a boater. For example some people such as notheadcharters (and many others) want to cover all the bases with service and bring a boat up to their standards which are often fairly high.

Maybe not at the beginning but somewhere along the line others (who usually do not want to be identified) want to run the asset into the ground and walk away when it is done.

There is a huge gap between these two perspectives and because of that difference there is also a huge difference in price.

Many however are in between somewhere and will cut corners where they can. I do not see any sin in that.
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Old 04-06-2014, 05:03 PM   #24
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A lot of reasons to have liability insurance. First, in the event of an accident, I don't want to be bankrupted. Second, in the event of an accident, I want the other parties to get what they deserve, for their boat to be repaired, their medical bills paid.

Now I drive cars and boats carefully. But I maintain insurance. I have very high deductibles on my side of it, the collision or hull. But the liability is very important to me. If you're telling me someone operated a boat rental business with no liability insurance, then I'm shocked. Shocked he would. Shocked he legally could.

But then I'm shocked liability insurance isn't required to register a boat. In my opinion it should be, just as it is on a car. I have no issue if people choose to not protect their own car or boat, but do have an issue if they run into mine and they don't have liability insurance.


I agree completely, especially about being required to carry liability insurance. I think it's irresponsible not to have liability insurance and irresponsible to suggest to anyone that they shouldn't have it.
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Old 04-06-2014, 05:07 PM   #25
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I don't like the tone of the "grossly" inflated you used. That sort of carried an assumption someone was cheating you. ............
I agree, that's pretty unfair. We don't know what a retailer, marina, or mechanic's expenses are and it's not up to us to determine what a fair return is for these folks,

Be smart, shop around and compare cost and value. Make an informed decision. Again, if cost bothers you that much, you need a cheaper hobby or at least a smaller boat.
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Old 04-06-2014, 05:12 PM   #26
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To add to B&B's post-in today's world, should something happen to your boat, the environmental cleanup cost can be staggering for even a relatively small spill. To me, having coverage for that eventuality alone, makes insurance a necessity.

Most marinas nowadays require liability to get a slip. A huge discussion here a few weeks ago re marinas wanting to be named as additional insured.

I am sure Pau Hana can give us many more reasons for being insured.
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Old 04-06-2014, 06:07 PM   #27
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One money saving suggestion right away is to get yacht out of the mindset....unless you buy fine and are worried about resale cost.

Accept a "look" that may not be the talk of the dock...but be the talk of the dock because your boat runs all the time and goes places because you are neither washing it, repairing it or working to afford it.

Use Rustoleum Marine paint instead of Interlux or Petit...and paint it yourself.

Use lower quality parts that may need replacing if their life cycle is "good enough" and lower in the long run...as long as they retain a safety margin like other stuff.

Shop around...both internet and locally...it's amazing how one item can be 2X or more at one place than another and some places will charge 3-20 time more for shipping and handling.

Learn what can be rebuilt and find a local that does a good job...things like alternators, electric motors (windlasses), starters, water pumps etc..etc are often remanufactured anyway and used by seasoned mechanics.

When cruising...study areas hard before you go...lot's of places have free docks or at least day docks...at usually $50 and over a night for marinas that are only providing a hole in the water for you it adds up quick ...especially if you get in late and leave early (ie not using much in the way of facilities but their cleats)....anchoring works too and the day docks make excercising, replenishing and pet reliefs easier.

Many boaters manage small marinas in trade for slips and other breaks on boating...it does tie you down to an area but some places may have lot's more flexibility than others. Based on many small marina managers I have met...actual qualifications seem to be meager....though their resume might be impressive.

And lastly...get to know people on the water who have been there, done that. Most of what you read in boating mags/books, what traditional "yachtie" marinas and maintenance types tell you, what the obvious "whip out the checkbook crowd" on the dock and internet say....etc..etc is horse pucky. For every example of what they say is the right way or wrong way or can or can't be done is being done by countless others on the water (probably as much as they are). Seek these people out and use good judgement...as they aren't always the correct fountain of info either...but it is the other side of the coin so to speak.
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Old 04-06-2014, 06:37 PM   #28
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Bad advice. Really bad advice. If you own anything of value, if you have any savings or retirement, or if you are the sort of person who believes in personal responsibility, you need liability insurance and plenty of it. If you kill or injure someone with your boat or on your boat or if your boat damages another boat, dock, marina, etc., you could be sued for everything you own. You need insurance.
I agree!! You might risk it with a small structure or piece of land. But a boat in the water?? No Way. . . Even the liability for a oil spill, fire or sinking. . . No insurance. . . the EPA would own you and all your assets for years to come.
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Old 04-06-2014, 06:43 PM   #29
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Angus 99 asked the Secrets of affordable boating, not your explanation of how you follow the status quo! By all means ask an Insurance agent if you need insurance, and demand yet more laws, rules, and regulations, more law enforcement and boarding, but don't be surprised when you find no buyers for your boat when you too have had enough. I just remembered that I also had no insurance for my charter boats when I was running to the Bahamas back in the mid 80s. Guess what? Didn't need it either. I'm a huge believer in "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, measure three times-cut once, plus experience trumps luck".
Going to a marina that requires insurance would be high on my list of things to avoid, the same as taking health tips from fat people who have a drink in one hand and a cigarette in the other. They need insurance. But if you want to know how to really do things in the real world, I've been doing this since 1974, and KISS is the answer.
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Old 04-06-2014, 07:00 PM   #30
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Angus 99 asked the Secrets of affordable boating, not your explanation of how you follow the status quo! By all means ask an Insurance agent if you need insurance, and demand yet more laws, rules, and regulations, more law enforcement and boarding, but don't be surprised when you find no buyers for your boat when you too have had enough. I just remembered that I also had no insurance for my charter boats when I was running to the Bahamas back in the mid 80s. Guess what? Didn't need it either. I'm a huge believer in "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, measure three times-cut once, plus experience trumps luck".
Going to a marina that requires insurance would be high on my list of things to avoid, the same as taking health tips from fat people who have a drink in one hand and a cigarette in the other. They need insurance. But if you want to know how to really do things in the real world, I've been doing this since 1974, and KISS is the answer.
I don't have a problem if someone has no insurance as long as they can show that they have the liquidity to cover any damages to me, my boat, my marina, or the environment.

With out that proven liquidity, they should not be able to utilize our shared resources, IE the public waterways.
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:54 PM   #31
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[QUOTE=pilothouse king;225206]............

Quote:
Your not required to have insurance, unless you have a mortgage, ................
Quote:
Maybe you need insurance, but many go their whole lives without it, with no problems to places you can't obtain it if you wanted it.. Just have a safe boat, be well prepared, and operate prudently. The guy who owned a boat rental place at the Marriott Marina in Miami never even had it, the 10 years he rented boats to novices with no claims or problems. I rode out Hurricane Andrew here on a 50' I lived aboard. Know my damages? Zero.t.
You're right. You don't need insurance as long as you are not involved in an accident, as long as your boat doesn't catch fire and burn down a marina and as long as your boat doesn't sink and spread fuel all over the waterway. You also don't need life insurance as long as you don't die.

The problem is, we can't see into the future and there's no way to guarantee against these things happening. Buying insurance is nothing more than spreading the risk. Any financial advisor worth his or her reputation will advise you to carry adequate insurance against all risks and this would certainly include a boat.

If your boat is blocked up in your back yard and there's a fence around it to keep people out, you are probably safe dropping your liability insurance. Otherwise, you are a fool to go uninsured. You (and your family) could lose everything. Does your child want to go to college? College fund is gone. Savings so you can retire early? Gone.

I doubt anything anyone can say will change your mind but I hope others will disregard your suggestion to go without liability insurance on their boats.
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:58 PM   #32
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I don't like the tone of the "grossly" inflated you used. That sort of carried an assumption someone was cheating you. Be careful as if you treat service providers with that thought you won't have good relationships. Specifically. Is $4/foot grossly inflated for a transient slip? No. Not if it's the market price at that location. Nor is $1/foot a bargain if it's run down and in an area with little demand. Marine fuel may seem high but there are many costs involved in providing it. So please don't think of things as grossly inflated but just prices varying a lot by where and whom. That doesn't mean don't look for bargains. Many town docks for 48 hours or so are great deals. One of the nicest marinas around in Wilmington NC is running a deal on a week free dockage. Yes, look around and compare prices. But if one marina is $3 and another is $2 that doesn't mean the $3 is inflated. I've paid $1 and wished there was better and I've paid $6 and felt I had a good deal. Of course I was in a resort with that and used their gym, their tennis courts, could have golfed or used their pool or laundry, used their concierge, even used their spa, got room service delivered to the boat.
Sorry but $4 or $6/ft is inflated!
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:04 PM   #33
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Any chance in hell of getting off the insurance tracks we've been down before and back on helping the OP make boating more affordable? Pretty please?
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Old 04-06-2014, 10:21 PM   #34
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Sorry but $4 or $6/ft is inflated!
Now at some locations. Atlantis, Paradise Island, Bahamas. It's quite reasonable there. New York City, again it's a reasonable rate.
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Old 04-06-2014, 11:10 PM   #35
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Maybe not at the beginning but somewhere along the line others (who usually do not want to be identified) want to run the asset into the ground and walk away when it is done.
I believe I may be falling into this category.
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Old 04-06-2014, 11:46 PM   #36
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One money saving suggestion right away is to get yacht out of the mindset....unless you buy fine and are worried about resale cost.

Accept a "look" that may not be the talk of the dock...but be the talk of the dock because your boat runs all the time and goes places because you are neither washing it, repairing it or working to afford it.

Use Rustoleum Marine paint instead of Interlux or Petit...and paint it yourself.

Use lower quality parts that may need replacing if their life cycle is "good enough" and lower in the long run...as long as they retain a safety margin like other stuff.

Shop around...both internet and locally...it's amazing how one item can be 2X or more at one place than another and some places will charge 3-20 time more for shipping and handling.

Learn what can be rebuilt and find a local that does a good job...things like alternators, electric motors (windlasses), starters, water pumps etc..etc are often remanufactured anyway and used by seasoned mechanics.

When cruising...study areas hard before you go...lot's of places have free docks or at least day docks...at usually $50 and over a night for marinas that are only providing a hole in the water for you it adds up quick ...especially if you get in late and leave early (ie not using much in the way of facilities but their cleats)....anchoring works too and the day docks make excercising, replenishing and pet reliefs easier.

Many boaters manage small marinas in trade for slips and other breaks on boating...it does tie you down to an area but some places may have lot's more flexibility than others. Based on many small marina managers I have met...actual qualifications seem to be meager....though their resume might be impressive.

And lastly...get to know people on the water who have been there, done that. Most of what you read in boating mags/books, what traditional "yachtie" marinas and maintenance types tell you, what the obvious "whip out the checkbook crowd" on the dock and internet say....etc..etc is horse pucky. For every example of what they say is the right way or wrong way or can or can't be done is being done by countless others on the water (probably as much as they are). Seek these people out and use good judgement...as they aren't always the correct fountain of info either...but it is the other side of the coin so to speak.
I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with you!
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Old 04-06-2014, 11:52 PM   #37
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I agree, that's pretty unfair.

Unfair to whom? West Marine?

We don't know what a retailer, marina, or mechanic's expenses are and it's not up to us to determine what a fair return is for these folks,

True, but it is up to me where I spend my money and how I define value.

Be smart, shop around and compare cost and value. Make an informed decision. Again, if cost bothers you that much, you need a cheaper hobby or at least a smaller boat.
Despite my previous posts, this is the second time you've suggested getting a cheaper hobby. Can we give that a rest? It's not applicable.
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Old 04-07-2014, 01:13 AM   #38
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If you shop well for your boat you can get a really good condition older model for a really affordable price! But, you do have to shop the market, Mr. Mc. This is still very much a shoppers market in the used power boat industry.

In my mind, in the long run, there ain't any more affordable pleasure-hobby experience than pleasure boating. Your name starts with Mc... see the deals, find the deals, get the deals... enjoy your boating life a great deal!

If you own (i.e. pay cash for) a really good condition, originally well built brand, classic aged FRP Power Cruiser... then with caution in spending $$$ on all counts... you could get away with as little as $2,000 to 4,000 annual coats. It don't get no cheaper than that to have and to use something you love to spend time doing.

Of course, you also could have a high interest loan on an expensive to purchase and maintain boat, spend high dollars for docking, hire everything done by professionals, and only shop at West Marine. In that case please remove Mc from your name and prepare to annually spend 10's of thousands $$$.

You make the call - I got faith in ya!
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Old 04-07-2014, 03:03 AM   #39
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Interesting posts. In my part of the world and the marina I am in, there are two things I could not really save on - one insurance because it is mandatory, or they won't let you in the marina, largely for reasons BandB mentioned. The other is fuel. Because there is only one refuelling facility in the marina, and frankly fuel is still the cheapest recurring cost of our boating anyway.

Where I did save was buying an older vessel, being prepared to do a lot of the mainly cosmetic refurbishing myself, and making myself accept imperfection…but not potentially dangerous imperfection. So I get an expert to fix stuff where safety is a potential issue, do the rest myself, and also do most installation of new gear myself. And by new gear, I mean GPS, depth sounders, radios and the like. I also make do with low end stuff, e.g. 5" screens instead of 8-12", (just as reliable, but smaller screens are way cheaper than large with marine gear), and I don't have an autopilot, (tho wish I did). Where we boat we can't really justify top-end hardware, or radar or autopilot, so do without.

I bought the marina berth as an investment, because their price slowly goes up, and I hated paying quarterly fees.

That's about it...
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Old 04-07-2014, 06:19 AM   #40
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Another "P" word PERSPECTIVE
It depends where you are coming from as a boater. For example some people such as notheadcharters (and many others) want to cover all the bases with service and bring a boat up to their standards which are often fairly high.

Maybe not at the beginning but somewhere along the line others (who usually do not want to be identified) want to run the asset into the ground and walk away when it is done.

There is a huge gap between these two perspectives and because of that difference there is also a huge difference in price.

Many however are in between somewhere and will cut corners where they can. I do not see any sin in that.
I'll identify myself....

I've posted it before on this forum several times.

My boat is being rebuilt to somewhere between workboat and worn yachtie standards.

It was a mess and near throwaway when I bought her and because I was able to save the estimated $50K in "labor" that the checkbookers would have needed to write....I have the option of living aboard and traveling inexpensively for the next say 20 years(health willing).

In 20 years the boat will be 46 years old and no one might want old trawlers then NO MATTER HOW NICE they are. I can part it out for beer money or whatever.

My cost of living is less than having a modest apartment and I still get to live in MY HOUSE in the Florida/Bahamas for the winter.

So despite what some say...there truly is a spectrum of what make sense out there...including trimming insurance costs to the bare minimum...though I do agree having what you need (not what some arbitrary standard is) makes sense.

There are lots of articles written out there discussing how Americans are over insured anyway...and insurance by itself doesn't save you from losing everything...that can happen as well unless you have a secret that protects personal assets.
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