Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-07-2016, 06:37 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
cool beans's Avatar
 
City: Norfolk, VA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 237
Joystick only, no ships wheel

. . .I have yet to ponder over a boat without some kind of questionable (often expensive) owners mod

This latest one is a Schucker that the current owner removed the wheel steering and replaced it with an autopilot that takes input from a joy stick. According to the broker there is nothing left of the original hydraulic steering. Wasn't able to get much else out over the phone other than the rudder response is almost instant.

I'm scheduled to look at it Saturday. Has anyone here heard of a kit like this? Or done anything DIY like this?

Thanks
__________________
Advertisement

cool beans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 06:45 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Sea Q's Avatar
 
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Sea Q
Vessel Model: Westport Mc Queen
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 103
We have auto pilot, joy stick bow thruster , joy stick rudder control and a remote to autopilot joy stick for rudder and a steering wheel to hold on to when it get rough
Guess we could have taken the wheel off but we still use it --when something goes wrong or just might
I think the new zeus pods maybe have joy sticks only
__________________

Sea Q is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 06:52 PM   #3
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
That's an interesting setup. By "joystick" do they mean some kind of follow up steering? I have been considering adding this to my boat, but would want to retain the hydraulic steering to ensure redundancy. I wouldn't want to have my only steering to be dependent on an autopilot. I can currently use my autopilot to control the rudder (buttons not a joystick) if my hydraulics failed.

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 06:58 PM   #4
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britannia View Post
That's an interesting setup. By "joystick" do they mean some kind of follow up steering? I have been considering adding this to my boat, but would want to retain the hydraulic steering to ensure redundancy. I wouldn't want to have my only steering to be dependent on an autopilot. I can currently use my autopilot to control the rudder (buttons not a joystick) if my hydraulics failed.

Richard
Agreed. I have often used my autopilot to steer, but would hate to be dependent on it.

BTW, stupid question time, what happens on a hydraulic steering system if the hydraulics fail? No rudder control I imagine? What drives the pump for the hydraulic system?
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 07:05 PM   #5
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
Agreed. I have often used my autopilot to steer, but would hate to be dependent on it.

BTW, stupid question time, what happens on a hydraulic steering system if the hydraulics fail? No rudder control I imagine? What drives the pump for the hydraulic system?
My HyNautics steering does not use a pump. The system is pressurized to 80psi using a foot pump (bicycle fitting) and maintains that pressure for a long time (it's probably been a year since I needed to pump it.)

The "power" to turn the rudder comes from the wheel itself - so that's your actual "pump". If it fails then you're hosed. Just the same as if any mechanical pump fails you're hosed. Or electronic only for that matter. Hence the desire for redundancy.

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 07:10 PM   #6
Guru
 
MYTraveler's Avatar
 
City: West Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 850
My boat has 6 stations, only two of which have wheels, but all of which have jog levers. The wheels, which are in the pilot house and flybridge, are rarely used. The levers are faster and easier, but the wheels are a good back up in case the AP system goes down.

I have noticed that several of the crab boats on Deadliest Catch don't have wheels, just jog levers.
MYTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 07:27 PM   #7
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,995
Greetings,
A lot of boats (trawlers) I've seen have provision in the aft cockpit for an emergency rudder. Quite straightforward on our last boat (34' Marine Trader). A bit more complicated on our current vessel but still doable. It IS an emergency after all.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 07:35 PM   #8
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
A lot of boats (trawlers) I've seen have provision in the aft cockpit for an emergency rudder. Quite straightforward on our last boat (34' Marine Trader). A bit more complicated on our current vessel but still doable. It IS an emergency after all.
My boat has the access plate for an emergency tiller - though I have not managed to find one on the boat! However, it would be next to useless for me. There is zero forward visibility from the cockpit and no access to engine controls and I single hand the boat a lot. I guess in the open ocean it could be useful - I could lash it somehow and go aft for the occasional course change.

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 07:39 PM   #9
Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 734
Having been out in some pretty rough seas (not necessarily by choice) I can not contemplate controlling a vessel with only a joystick. Perhaps this works on a mega vessel but on my mere 50 footer the motion can be more than enough to make controlling a joy stick while trying to remain in place at the "helm" more than challenging. Perhaps for docking or other activities but, never without a wheel!!
Chrisjs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 07:58 PM   #10
Guru
 
High Wire's Avatar
 
City: Cape May, NJ and Englewood, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,600
Next time you see Deadliest Catch count how many of those have wheels. Pretty sure its none.
__________________
Archie
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Englewood, FL and Cape May, NJ
High Wire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 08:13 PM   #11
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
To be clear, a jog lever is for a temporary operation, like a dodge. It's real simple - basically a "bang/bang" lever for left or right rudder.

A FFU (full follow up) lever is a proportional steering control - move the lever (for example) 10 degrees and leave it there, and the rudder goes to 10 degrees...and stays there.

You cannot "steer" a boat with a jog lever.


Keith
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 08:34 PM   #12
Guru
 
Hawgwash's Avatar
 
City: Sidney
Country: Canada
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britannia;
My boat has the access plate for an emergency tiller - though I have not managed to find one on the boat! However, it would be next to useless for me.
Marin wrote about trying the one on his boat. He got down in the lazarette with the tiller while his wife took the controls and told him where to go.

Where is he by the way?
Hawgwash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 09:08 PM   #13
Guru
 
MYTraveler's Avatar
 
City: West Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 850
Quote:
Originally Posted by refugio View Post
You cannot "steer" a boat with a jog lever.
Keith
Why not? Simrad jog levers work differently than you describe. When the lever is turned, the rudder turns. When released, it springs back to center and the rudder stops turning, but stays where you put it. Really not much different from a wheel. By contrast, an FFU centers the rudders when you let go. That would be much harder to steer with since you couldn't let go until you are ready to have the rudders centered. On a previous boat, I had the FFU type and never really used it for steering, but was happy to have it, and therefore specified FFU for my current boat. To my surprise, Simrad didn't offer an FFU for their newer systems, so I settled for a "jog lever", with assurances that I would learn to prefer it. And sure enough, I do! (I will say that rudder indicators are necessary to know when the rudders are centered, although some professionals I have talked to insist that a "feel" for centered quickly develops.)
MYTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 09:14 PM   #14
Guru
 
MYTraveler's Avatar
 
City: West Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisjs View Post
Having been out in some pretty rough seas (not necessarily by choice) I can not contemplate controlling a vessel with only a joystick. Perhaps this works on a mega vessel but on my mere 50 footer the motion can be more than enough to make controlling a joy stick while trying to remain in place at the "helm" more than challenging. Perhaps for docking or other activities but, never without a wheel!!
I am a little more than 50', but not enough to make much difference in the kind of heavy seas you describe. I have never been in seas so bad that my ability to use the jog lever was impaired, but I imagine that if the seas were so bad that I couldn't control the jog lever for a few seconds (it is really quick), no way could I control the wheel. That said, I think my AP will be doing most of the steering work while I handle the throttles.
MYTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 09:17 PM   #15
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,262
I prefer a wheel. Don't want to believe I'm operating a flight simulator.

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 09:19 PM   #16
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by MYTraveler View Post
Why not? Simrad jog levers work differently than you describe. When the lever is turned, the rudder turns. When released, it springs back to center and the rudder stops turning, but stays where you put it. Really not much different from a wheel. By contrast, an FFU centers the rudders when you let go. That would be much harder to steer with since you couldn't let go until you are ready to have the rudders centered. On a previous boat, I had the FFU type and never really used it for steering, but was happy to have it, and therefore specified FFU for my current boat. To my surprise, Simrad didn't offer an FFU for their newer systems, so I settled for a "jog lever", with assurances that I would learn to prefer it. And sure enough, I do! (I will say that rudder indicators are necessary to know when the rudders are centered, although some professionals I have talked to insist that a "feel" for centered quickly develops.)
I have seen that referred to as Non Follow Up (NFU) steering as opposed to Full Follow Up (FFU).

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 09:23 PM   #17
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
My first joystick ride was delivering a 5560 Regal with Volvo pods. The owners mechanic said to use the stick for close quarters so with no practice I headed out of a harbour with many tight turns. After 30 seconds I turned off the stick and went to the wheel. The stick reaction was too fast for my liking. After another 30 seconds I went back to the stick and never used the whell at all for the next 8 days from Toronto to Duluth.

The geometry of the pods did not work at all for conventional steering in close quarters with the props being so far forward. By the end of the trip I was in love with the stick and pod drives. I then did an insurance investigation on another Regal and that put me off pods for good. Gear reduction failure (seized) damaged pod and engine .... $35k for a pod rebuild and $120k for a new engine. I saw the Volvo invoice, the bare engine block was $60k .... put me off pod drives for good. This boat was out of warranty and heavily financed, the owner walked.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 09:23 PM   #18
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,080
Can someone describe exactly what each of those systems actually do? I am used to the Raymarine APs where I can dial in a course change and the AP will change the heading of the boat to that course. It only indirectly dictates rudder position. Is that how these work?
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 10:01 PM   #19
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
Can someone describe exactly what each of those systems actually do? I am used to the Raymarine APs where I can dial in a course change and the AP will change the heading of the boat to that course. It only indirectly dictates rudder position. Is that how these work?
Full Follow Up is a lever that can be moved to left or right. When moved to a certain position, the rudder will move to the same angle. In the systems I have seen the lever will stay where it is put until it is moved again. So think of this as directly setting the rudder angle.

Non Follow Up has a lever that is sprung back to center position. Moving the lever either left or right will move the rudder left or right for as long as you keep the lever over to that side. If you the release the lever it will spring back to the center, but the rudder will stay in its current position.

Both systems are used in conjunction with a rudder angle indicator. Although if working properly, you can see that the FFU steering doesn't technically need one. Though there is always some lag.

Overall these are very fast ways of moving the rudder - especially on larger vessels.

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 10:05 PM   #20
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
Can someone describe exactly what each of those systems actually do? I am used to the Raymarine APs where I can dial in a course change and the AP will change the heading of the boat to that course. It only indirectly dictates rudder position. Is that how these work?
And to answer your AP question: these mechanisms control the rudder directly and are not related to you course. They are in lieu of a wheel. However, they may well use the same hydraulics that the AP uses to control the rudder. In many cases they are linked to the AP so that you can set certain behaviors, such as taking over from the AP as soon as you move the FU lever for dodging or emergencies.
__________________

Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012