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Old 04-08-2016, 10:40 AM   #41
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Aw heck, don't you really miss it after all?

If I had a wheel like that I might be tempted!
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Old 04-08-2016, 10:43 AM   #42
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It is too bad that Raymarine discontinued their Autopilot SeaTalk Joystick. It looks like it would be pretty handy to have. As far as boat stuff is concerned, it wasn't as expensive as many items.
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Old 04-08-2016, 11:37 AM   #43
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Tiller bars (joy sticks?) aren't new. My dad used one on Lac Leberge
years ago. No wheel (power steering) , it controlled a steam valve to a cylinder. Oops, there was a wheel, it went across the stern with multiple
beater bars (paddles)

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Old 04-08-2016, 12:01 PM   #44
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Joystick only, no ships wheel

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Originally Posted by Sailor of Fortune View Post
Jog levers are standard equipment on commercial boats. I haven't been on a tug with a wheel in at least 25 years. I have also never steered with Full follow up, only use non follow up. You most certainly can "steer" a boat with a jog lever, or else I have been doing it wrong for 30 plus years.
Ok, tell us how you used a jog lever to counter the equivalent of a "weather helm". Looking forward to how you keep, say, 2 degrees of rudder with only "left full", "right full", and "center" commands.

Edit: I think I see your point. Nudge left or right to drive rudder, centering does nothing. Can't recall seeing that configuration but would certainly be possible.


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Old 04-08-2016, 12:07 PM   #45
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Jog lever lets you keep as many or as few degrees as you want. NFU, leaves the rudder where you stop pushing the jog lever. Want 3 degrees port? a moment on the lever and let go. rudder stays where you leave it...
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Old 04-08-2016, 12:19 PM   #46
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We used the Raymarine Jog-type lever like S.O.F. is referring to on one GH37. Although it worked fine, I found it nowhere near as intuitive as the Simrad FU system - especially around the dock. The button on top returns the rudders to center.
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Old 04-08-2016, 03:23 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by kraftee View Post
We used the Raymarine Jog-type lever like S.O.F. is referring to on one GH37. Although it worked fine, I found it nowhere near as intuitive as the Simrad FU system - especially around the dock. The button on top returns the rudders to center.
I was contemplating that control for my new EVO pilot. I already have the ST-STNG converter. Is it spring loaded? My main use case is maneuvering in and out of my slip where I'd like to shift the rudder quickly (my steering rams total 39 cubic inches) but not have it move if I let go of the lever. That control has a couple of configurable modes but the docs are unclear.


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Old 04-08-2016, 04:07 PM   #48
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Yes, the joystick is spring loaded. I just found it a bit difficult to get a "feel" for how far it has moved your rudders. So when you are trying to quickly go to opposite lock, you find yourself leaning on the lever while still trying to manage throttles, clutches, thrusters, etc. However, it is nice to always be able to center your rudders with a push of the button! YMMV

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Old 04-08-2016, 05:00 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by kraftee View Post
Yes, the joystick is spring loaded. I just found it a bit difficult to get a "feel" for how far it has moved your rudders. So when you are trying to quickly go to opposite lock, you find yourself leaning on the lever while still trying to manage throttles, clutches, thrusters, etc. However, it is nice to always be able to center your rudders with a push of the button! YMMV

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Kids who have grown up playing games and using joysticks don't have those issues. They're use to subtle small movements with one and big bold moves. Power wheel chairs also use joysticks and it takes some a bit to adjust, whereas with kids it's just second nature.
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:05 PM   #50
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Okay. I understand that. However, with a video game you SEE the results as you are manipulating the joystick. With a wheelchair, it actually moves. Even with the IPS and Zeus joystick controls, you feel the boat move in the direction you are moving the stick.

With a spring-loaded rudder joystick, especially when sitting almost still in a docking situation, you really cannot see or get a concept of where your rudders are unless you stare at the rudder angle indicator.

The same could be said for a steering wheel, but you (or at least I) have a much better idea of how far you have turned that wheel, intuitively, than a spring loaded joystick.

But that's just how it worked out for me. I did not like the spring-loaded Raymarine joystick at the dock. It was okay underway.
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:16 PM   #51
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But that's just how it worked out for me. I did not like the spring-loaded Raymarine joystick at the dock. It was okay underway.
I've never used the Raymarine spring loaded. I've used Zeus, Yacht Controller, and Xenta. We use the Autopilot and the wheel when at the helm, but joysticks for close maneuvering and docking.
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:19 PM   #52
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Keith,

As I understand it, the RM had two modes. One would return the rudder to amidships when released. The other would leave the rudder in the deflected position when the joystick was released. That second mode is what I think you would use?

However, I don't think RM makes those anymore even for the newer EVO autopilots.
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:36 PM   #53
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............ BTW, stupid question time, what happens on a hydraulic steering system if the hydraulics fail? No rudder control I imagine? What drives the pump for the hydraulic system?
My hydraulic steering failed once as I was leaving the dock. The boat made a complete 360. Halfway through this, I realized that it was most likely because the fluid was low (it had a minor leak) so I ran below in time to back it into the slip using the lower helm.

I refilled the upper helm and we were on our way.

A better plan, of course is to check the steering before casting the lines off.

On my Sea Star, the helm is the pump. More specifically, the helms are the pumps.
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:25 PM   #54
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To be clear, a jog lever is for a temporary operation, like a dodge. It's real simple - basically a "bang/bang" lever for left or right rudder.

A FFU (full follow up) lever is a proportional steering control - move the lever (for example) 10 degrees and leave it there, and the rudder goes to 10 degrees...and stays there.

You cannot "steer" a boat with a jog lever.


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That's not quite true. A jog lever is all I have seen on tugs for over 20 years. There were a few old boats that had both a wheel and an electronic jog stick. But the idea that a jog lever cant be used to steer a boat is false.

The jog lever installation means that the steering system uses electrically driven solenoids to shunt hydraulic pressure to the ram(s). A jog lever is just another way to control steering. As some mentioned, a steering system that uses the wheel to pump the hydraulic fluid can't use jog levers.


Personally I don't like FFU levers. Unless in a specific situation where the levers are large enough to use as a visual/physical indicator of rudder location. The FFU levers I have used (simrad) are not proportional. Meaning the first 5 degrees of throw are not equal to the rest of the throw. I have used FFU levers that were exact representations of rudder location, and were great. The 'overthought' systems like Simrad are not intuitive.
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:56 PM   #55
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BTW, stupid question time, what happens on a hydraulic steering system if the hydraulics fail? No rudder control I imagine? What drives the pump for the hydraulic system?
On my boat (which I believe is fairly typical), the wheels drive mechanical pumps that are part of the same system that the AP's power pump drives. So even if the AP or its pumps fail, the wheels still work. That redundancy is their raison d'etre.
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Old 04-08-2016, 10:50 PM   #56
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I'm happy with a destroyer wheel, as well as the left-right joy stick for the bow thruster.

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Old 04-09-2016, 06:11 PM   #57
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This has been an interesting read! Not sure what kind of system this is, need to bug the broker some more.

Thanks!
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