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Old 02-27-2015, 04:02 PM   #61
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Just because they were delivering a sailboat, doesn't mean they were competent sailors.
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Old 02-27-2015, 04:06 PM   #62
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I wouldn't put too much worry in bringing down your kk. You're going the easy way. The bottom half could well just be a boring slog down the coast. Spend some time in Misty fiords, the Broughtons, and Desolation Sound. The trip down coast can be done delivery style. Not much to see and lonely.
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Old 02-27-2015, 04:34 PM   #63
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That's a great boat. When are you acquiring it? Stabilized too!!!
Thanks - it should be mine early next week. Yes - Wesmar fin stabilizers.

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Old 02-27-2015, 06:03 PM   #64
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I wouldn't put too much worry in bringing down your kk. You're going the easy way. The bottom half could well just be a boring slog down the coast. Spend some time in Misty fiords, the Broughtons, and Desolation Sound. The trip down coast can be done delivery style. Not much to see and lonely.
Yes - I'm figuring on the second leg being 24x7 and uninteresting once we round Cape Flattery. By all accounts (and given the shape of the stern) my KK54 will be happy in following seas.

I'm hoping to make it to Misty Fiords on my shakedown cruise in a week's time. The delivery will be the most direct route from Ketchikan to Anacortes with day time running only. The crew and I just don't have enough vacation time to make it into a real cruise. I'll be back one day. I'm registering the hailing port as Ketchikan, AK to remind me to return in the future!

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Old 02-27-2015, 06:22 PM   #65
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Totally a bad choice by the owner of the boat but I'm sure he trusted them.

I know an owner of a Hatteras 60' power boat that trusted a non licensed sailboat owner to take his boat up and down the coast from Los Angeles to Cabo and on to La Paz. On the trip back he lost the boat. There were no pre checks and below deck checks while underway. Just watching the bilge light on occasion.

Watching the video made me think of this. Choosing a skipper should be common sense but I think the dollar blows that away.
I think this story has unraveled all its going to. I think it was covered at the time on Sailnet or CF.

I think the boat could have handled it just fine with an experience operator. But what experience operator would go out in that weather, especially when you can sit tight and run the boat up the coast at flank speed when the weather improves?
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:09 AM   #66
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In most human factors accidents...you can almost always go back to experience and training....in this case, unless someone has a handle on that and medical conditions of the crew, and a few other minor type bits of info...lots of speculation may come back and haunt all those speculating.


Nothing worse than being an accident investigator and missing something very simple at the beginning.


Have at it at the generic discussion, start pointing fingers and the last laugh might be on you....
In many cases I'd agree with you. But these guys screwed the pooch from the get go in their seeming ignorance of the forecasted weather. And if the had any medical conditions that could cause them problems in the event of bad weather or being to far from help, then that would just compound their ignorance.

And making and posting that video in that style does nothing to help their cause.

Since you seem to be in a generous mood and willing to give the benefit of the doubt, I wonder what you think of this captain?

Boat comes out of dense fog, crashes into Ruskin restaurant - WFLA News Channel 8
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Old 02-28-2015, 01:30 AM   #67
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I wonder if you asked these guys "Who is Adlard Coles?" what their answer would be.
Good question. From memory, he wrote and/or published "Heavy Weather Sailing". A read which might have helped these people prepare, though if you get yourself into those conditions, maybe nothing prepares you.
One thing to come out of the disastrous 1998 Sydney-Hobart was a misconception of what "storm" really meant, even to experienced blue water racing sailors.
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Old 02-28-2015, 05:01 AM   #68
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See my post a few ahead of this one. Boat was sighted but don't know if it was salvaged.
But the date of the sighting was June 2013?
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Old 02-28-2015, 07:09 AM   #69
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In many cases I'd agree with you. But these guys screwed the pooch from the get go in their seeming ignorance of the forecasted weather. And if the had any medical conditions that could cause them problems in the event of bad weather or being to far from help, then that would just compound their ignorance.

And making and posting that video in that style does nothing to help their cause.

Since you seem to be in a generous mood and willing to give the benefit of the doubt, I wonder what you think of this captain?

Boat comes out of dense fog, crashes into Ruskin restaurant - WFLA News Channel 8
My point early on was as much about making judgements from a news article or two and applies here as well.

The rest is for general consumption and not directed at you Capt Bill.....you may already know most of this.

In the other case, more info has come out from different sources and more inferences can be made ....and that would apply here too.

Even the one law enforcement official in this case said something like when you have an accident on the water there almost always is some blame.

As an accident investigator, I learned what many people do right away is fit the outcome of an accident into the mold of previous ones....human nature....experience.

That was beat out of me in many investigation courses I took and looking back on thousands of aircraft accidents I studied, and now hundreds of boating accidents...even now when one happens...I usually see 3 or 4 major probabilities why it happened...not just one and never just the crew.

The 2 delivery guys seem to have made a long string of errors...which is typical in many accidents...without info it's just hard to determine which ones were clearly mistakes at the time
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Old 02-28-2015, 08:04 AM   #70
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The 2 delivery guys seem to have made a long string of errors...which is typical in many accidents...without info it's just hard to determine which ones were clearly mistakes at the time
Actually might be that many were mistakes but in your history the critical thing was figuring out which mistakes contributed to the accident. Also some mistakes just by their nature are more important than others.

We all make mistakes all the time. The point is to make them minor and not errors of judgement. I doubt there is anyone here who has never sped in a car and never accidentally run a light. Fortunately most of those mistakes haven't led to an accident, but almost all accidents have similar mistakes. Now, I don't call DUI a mistake. It's a conscious decision.

Of course in this case of the delivery guys it's likely to be a situation where mistakes compounded themselves. Assuming, for instance, that once at sea they made mistakes, those would have never been an issue if they hadn't made the mistake (if it was) of being there.

I've wondered one other thing and that is if the delivery captains had any sailboat knowledge or experience. They intended to motor so in most cases that wouldn't have been an issue. Engine out and it becomes one.

I think your training gives some lessons for all of us too, basically not to assume and go into an investigation with an open mind. The difference is we're not going into an investigation so we attempt to do a virtual one which is ultimately impossible.
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Old 02-28-2015, 08:11 AM   #71
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But the date of the sighting was June 2013?

I think the CG rescue happened March 6 2013. So the boat floated around for 4 months.

I guess insurance companies don't do massive searches for boats lost at sea? Probably too expensive.
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Old 02-28-2015, 08:25 AM   #72
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I think the CG rescue happened March 6 2013. So the boat floated around for 4 months.

I guess insurance companies don't do massive searches for boats lost at sea? Probably too expensive.
They will do them sometimes...but yes awfully expensive with low probability unless an EPIRB/some locating device was left onboard...
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Old 02-28-2015, 08:52 AM   #73
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Since you seem to be in a generous mood and willing to give the benefit of the doubt, I wonder what you think of this captain?

Boat comes out of dense fog, crashes into Ruskin restaurant - WFLA News Channel 8
Clearly a case of not enough horsepower.
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Old 02-28-2015, 08:55 AM   #74
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Clearly a case of not enough horsepower.
True. Just a bit more and they would have made the parking lot at the front of the building.
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Old 02-28-2015, 09:10 AM   #75
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True. Just a bit more and they would have made the parking lot at the front of the building.
I've seen cars that ran into restaurants and houses. Not personally seen boats into restaurants but once on the lake there was a rather miraculous flying boat. It was long ago, a very high powered jet (boat, not airplane, although you may wonder). There were three boats pulled up to the beach side by side. There were no people in two of them but the one in the middle had just pulled up and had five people in it. The jet went directly into the first boat at full speed, became airborne, missed the second boat and landed right in the middle of the third boat. Three boats totaled but no one hurt. Those in the middle boat didn't really have time to grasp what was happening until they just found themselves left there in the middle of the mess. I guess it goes without saying that the operator was greatly under the influence of alcohol.
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Old 02-28-2015, 09:13 AM   #76
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When I saw the photo of the Ruskin accident I immediately thought that Jimmy Buffett was updating the cover photo for his Box Set "Beaches, Boats and Bars and Ballads".
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:59 PM   #77
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If my history knowledge is correct this also where the Monitor sank while under tow to a new theatre of operations. Of course it wouldn't have required very rough water to sink it.
You are correct although it was reported that the Monitor sank in rough seas. I think the Monitor could be a little farther offshore as it was in about 190' of water. I know a guy that was along on the dives to evaluate lifting the Monitor. He said that the current was so strong that it made the diving very difficult. This is in the area that we fished quite often. Also in the area was the torpedoed tanker the Atlas. I was one of our favorite spots I didn't learn until later that my sister-in-law's father went down on the Atlas.
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Old 02-28-2015, 02:40 PM   #78
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We were out last year in similar sized seas (10-12 foot, short interval and messy), but with no wind as a storm cycle had just moved through over the previous few days.

We overheated when my hot water tank shifted and kinked the outgoing coolant hose. The engine was down for a couple hours before I tracked down the problem. During this time we were rolling at 45 degrees, until we managed to anchor in 150 feet water.

My crew of one was totally incapacitated due to seasickness, and I wasn't feeling great either, after a big birthday party the previous night. . We didn't even consider notifying the the coast guard, never mind issuing a mayday.

Yes - we were sick and uncomfortable, and were having difficulty sorting out the problem, the contents of the cupboards were rolling around in the aisle, and my mother wasn't there, - but we were not in imminent danger.

They cheated death? - I think they cheated the coast guard & the tax payer.
Hi Auscan,

Add a couple of shutoffs on the output and input of your coolant hoses. This will allow a quick shutoff of the external loop when things go bad.

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Old 02-28-2015, 02:54 PM   #79
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I watched the whole video. I read the first and fourth pages of this thread.

So I may have missed it. Where were they guys trying to go?

I have left Chesapeake Bay twice, where they did going NORTH, there is almost NO since in going south from there. In fact, their compass showed ESE.

Lastly if you watch the video from the helo, the boat looks in fine shape. Where was this 50 degrees heel they talked about"
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Old 02-28-2015, 03:23 PM   #80
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I think the CG rescue happened March 6 2013. So the boat floated around for 4 months.

I guess insurance companies don't do massive searches for boats lost at sea? Probably too expensive.

My mistake. I thought this whole event was recent, but I see it's about 2 years old
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