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Old 02-04-2016, 12:12 AM   #41
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Everyone's preferences are different. From the point of view of operating a boat my wife and I think flying bridges are a total waste of space. We hate the sight picture from up there when it comes to maneuvering, for example.

A pilothouse, on the other hand, is perfect. I provides a degree of elevation for visibility but one is still low enough down to have a great feel for the position of the boat during close-in maneuvering and docking. Deck access is much easier and faster than from a flying bridge. And in our climate, a pilothouse has the visibility advantage while being protected from rain, wind, and cold.

Our PNW boat is not a pilothouse boat simply because the one we really like was more than we wanted to spend on a boat at the time we decided to buy a cruising boat. But in our opinions, and in the opinions of a whole lot of boaters in this part of the world, the pilothouse is the best configuration out there.

The only value the flying bridge on our boat has is it makes a nice place to sit on a decent day once we've reached our destination. And sometimes guests like to ride up there if the weather permits. But otherwise it is totally useless other than one of the seat bases makes for a great propane locker.
We had a 31' pilothouse and the engine beneath our feet eventually bothered me. It would have needed more soundproofing, down to the smallest mouse-hole. I go up on the bridge when cruising slow and hear only the water being sliced, as the breeze feathers my ears.

With our 37' Canoe Cove we have a glorious bridge, but really the same roof area on the boat as a Grand Banks, but it's functional. What can you put up top on pilothouses? A dinghy you need a crane to launch?

As for weather, when I want to dock or cruise I have a choice between the bridge or inside, and down there I can see aft, and debris or crab traps forward equally well.

Finally, cruising under a bridge Bimini suits us well, our family is fair-haired, and the shade is the needed default. Lots of room to disperse a day-crowd around the boat.

Sitting on stools in the pilothouse all the time ain't for us. Too much wine spilled over the charts...
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:39 AM   #42
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We could have lost the boat to a fire not long after buying it had my wife not happened to go down to the main cabin to get something and smelled what was happening. We've never driven the boat from the flying bridge since.

We want to be where we can hear, smell and feel whats going on with the engines and boat's systems. Engine noise doesn't phase us. We fly an airplane that makes our twin engine PNW boat seem silent in comparison.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:14 AM   #43
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My engine is beneath my feet, under the pilothouse. The engine compartment is well insulated, but not enough that one doesn't know the engine's "voices." One can speak in a normal tone/volume and be heard. That's good enough. Here with hatch covers removed:

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Old 02-04-2016, 01:21 AM   #44
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After looking at many boats during a few years of being boatless... when we stepped onto our current 34' Tollycraft tri cabin... we said quietly to one another: It fits us and we fit it! After week of survey, sea trial, etc we felt really good about her. Soooo I closed the deal with the now PO. All we felt upon first stepping aboard our Tolly has proven even better than correct, while years pass.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:41 AM   #45
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We could have lost the boat to a fire not long after buying it had my wife not happened to go down to the main cabin to get something and smelled what was happening. We've never driven the boat from the flying bridge since.

We want to be where we can hear, smell and feel whats going on with the engines and boat's systems. Engine noise doesn't phase us. We fly an airplane that makes our twin engine PNW boat seem silent in comparison.
Now I understand your intense reason why no FB cruising, even on warm, sunny days. Previously I always questioned your stance on that.

Must ask; has there ever been smell of fire since that time when being in salon and not on FB may have saved the boat and your lives? Being "old salts" with experience regarding your now very well maintained and safe condition boat... IMHO... it is perfectly OK to spend at least some time to enjoy piloting on/from the FB. YRMV

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Old 02-04-2016, 02:18 AM   #46
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I work in an industry that assumes the worst will happen and so takes every step practical to prevent it happening or deal with it if it does.

Whether or not we have experienced the event on our boat since the first time is irrelevant. The fact is that it can happen so we take every step practical to prevent it happenng again.

And as I've stated before, neither one of us likes operating a boat from the flying bridge anyway. We feel disconnected from the boat up there and we don't like the sight picture. Down below we feel like we're part of the boat, not just sitting on top of one. It's one of the things we want out of our boating; we don't expect anyone else to understand that.

We both enjoy operating machines for the sake of operating them. Vehicles, airplanes, boats, it's all the same. It's why I like multi-engine boats, the more engines the better. I enjoy the challenge of mastering all the options a complex system makes possible.
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:16 AM   #47
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Not being an oxygen tent enthusiast , I have always admired the Midnight Lace series from Tom Fexas.

These have a delight copied from the commuter boats of the 20's and 30's a BOW COCKPIT.

Of course 90 years ago a "hand " would be operating the boat , but today a remote auto pilot and engine control and GPS would be OTS .
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:48 AM   #48
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Don't know about that. So far as I'm aware, a pilothouse and a lower helm are two different things. Unless perhaps if one has a pilothouse boat with a flying bridge above that in which case the pilothouse helm could be considered the lower helm.

But to me a pilothouse boat is a boat with a raised pilothouse that is some level higher than the main deck/main cabin of the boat. It's a configuration.

Lower helm is just a position description to my way of thinking. Our boat has a flying bridge helm and a lower helm which is at the forward end of the main cabin.

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Greetings,
We have a PH but it is NOT raised. It is separate from the galley and saloon.

Yeah, I've always thought of it as three options: raised pilothouse, pilothouse (usually at least slightly separated from other living spaces), and lower helm (forward but basically part of the saloon). Without regard to whether there's a flying bridge or not.

Pros and cons with each, of course. And to a certain extent, size matters. It'd be difficult to incorporate an RP in our size boat... but I suspect it could begin to work if the boat were another 4-6' longer.

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Old 02-04-2016, 08:15 AM   #49
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Not being an oxygen tent enthusiast , I have always admired the Midnight Lace series from Tom Fexas.

These have a delight copied from the commuter boats of the 20's and 30's a BOW COCKPIT.

Of course 90 years ago a "hand " would be operating the boat , but today a remote auto pilot and engine control and GPS would be OTS .

Had to look that boat style up-- I've never heard of it. That is an interesting setup with the low flybridge. Actually the only bridge.

Great cockpit seating, and that bow cockpit is crazy. Looks like water could enter that bow cockpit hatch and get inside maybe?
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:30 AM   #50
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Whether or not we have experienced the event on our boat since the first time is irrelevant. The fact is that it can happen so we take every step practical to prevent it happenng again.
Be careful crossing the street. Statistical - practicality of safety to life and limb shows we should not. However, life is to enjoy and risks are a part of enjoying it.

I can vicariously perceive the other reasons (besides boat fire) you mention about why you don't seem to enjoy fly bridge cruising... I simply can not internally feel them.

That is why DSFDFolks makes civilization's world go round! ETTOwn!
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:44 AM   #51
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I'm late to this thread, but I'll add my thoughts from my perspective: raised pilothouse for 12 years and sedan style prior to that. My pilothouse is about 4' higher than the saloon, the stairs are on the side, and everything is carpeted - so I'm much more cut off from the saloon than Mark's boat.

Yes, I can be somewhat isolated from a group in the saloon - but that cuts both ways: sometimes it's a good thing.

At the dock, just me, my wife, and dog - it obviously doesn't matter much. We are stern out and the RPH effectively gives us privacy from folks on the dock at the expense of not having a 360 degree view from the saloon, which is more interesting when anchored. Underway with the same crew I'll admit that it's hard to communicate with my wife and know where she is on the vessel. In fact, I just bought a Raymarine Lifetag system to address some of the safety aspect of that. When I had a sedan, I could see the entire boat (except into the forward cabin) from the helm, but on my current boat there are large blind spots from the pilothouse. Yes, cameras can help alleviate that but it's not the same thing.

When you add more people is when it gets interesting. A large crowd (we routinely take out 12-20 folks on Lake Washington) splits into three groups: the socializing ones in the saloon, my friends who are boaters in the pilothouse, and the younger folks on the boat deck if the weather is fine. Yes, sometimes I end up a bit cut-off in the pilothouse and have to call down for food and beverages. And some of the guests never make it up for a visit. That's the other time I kind of wish we were all on one level.

But when it gets dark, or when I want to spread out a bunch of books and a couple of charts and really concentrate on route planning, or when I just want a quiet place to concentrate - the pilothouse is perfect. When we're at anchor for a BBQ with a medium-sized party of 8-12 the pilothouse is a quiet oasis where I can escape the craziness of kids jumping in the water, running around, etc.

And one last consideration: it can make an awesome extra stateroom. I have cruised on quite a few other people's boats over the years and I always opt for a berth in the pilothouse if that's an option. My pilothouse has an almost queen sized area that we use both as a "day bed" and a berth for a couple. When it's just the 2 of us cruising, it's where we sleep unless rafted to another large vessel.
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Old 02-04-2016, 10:49 AM   #52
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EY: I think the interiors in most vessels are designed to make the most efficient use of space without compromising the seaworthiness of the vessel. When we first started looking at boats we were initially drawn to the tri cabin types, such as CHB, one of which we chartered. We then were drawn to the Europa design. However we felt that the interior helm of these vessels were not really what we wanted, and most people typically operate these vessels from the fly bridge.

With the raised Pilothouse you gain interior space by placing it on top of the staterooms and heads that are "offset" into the lower spaces in the forward areas of the vessel. The Pilothouse is a kind of bonus interior space, without compromise to the other living spaces. With the tri-cabin and and Europa designs, the lower helm does take away from some of the living space in the saloon, albeit modestly so.

We chose the KK42 after stepping aboard probably over a hundred different vessels for many reasons, not least of which we found it to be the most spacious boat for its size that affords people privacy if desired. It also had, by far the largest pilothouse of any 42' vessel we had been on. Same goes for the cockpit. Simply put we really like the layout.


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Old 02-04-2016, 11:23 AM   #53
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Good point. I suppose one could say, then, that the correct definition of a pilothouse is more along the lines of a separate compartment used for controlling the boat. As opposed to a control station that's incorporated into a compartment that also serves other functions like a saloon/galley/etc.
Not totally... Our pilothouse (not just a lower helm IMHO) is raised and serves as the galley as well
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:07 PM   #54
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With the raised Pilothouse you gain interior space by placing it on top of the staterooms and heads that are "offset" into the lower spaces in the forward areas of the vessel. The Pilothouse is a kind of bonus interior space, without compromise to the other living spaces. With the tri-cabin and and Europa designs, the lower helm does take away from some of the living space in the saloon, albeit modestly so.

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This is probably the best description of a pilothouse that I have read.

A pilothouse does not take away from interior space. As Jim indicated it adds to the volume of interior space in most cases.

Try to fit a pilothouse on a smaller boat and you'll end up having to eat up some salon/galley space, or make a very small pilothouse. Toms 42 navigator is a prime example of this. In his case they combined the pilothouse with the galley which is a great (in my opinion) design choice in that size boat.



On On Jims KK42 they were able to have a nice pilothouse and a nice salon/galley by pushing the pilothouse forward.



Add just a few feet to the boats length and the pilothouse can be more aft while still allowing for a nice sized galley/salon. Here's a photo of my Bayliner 4788 showing this.



Add more length to the boat and you have the ability to slide the pilothouse further aft and still have a nice size salon/galley. At some point the boat becomes large enough that a pilothouse can be added above the main salon, making aft placement a possibility like in the Nordhaven 62 (still in my opinion the best looking boat on the water)

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Old 02-04-2016, 12:11 PM   #55
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Pilothouse started as meaning an enclosed area from which to operate the boat. In practice that area may not be fully enclosed but just separated and it is generally raised from the level of the salon. It may be raised a foot or half a deck level or to another deck. On smaller boats it is typically raised a few steps, on larger boats it is raised much like a split level home and on larger boats it get's its on level.

My point is I don't think any two pilothouse boats are the same and the important aspect to me seems to be is there a separate area provided for managing and controlling the boat. Really is it more than just a helm stuck on the same deck as the salon and galley.

The term becoming popular is RPH or Raised Pilothouse, meaning it is raised and should give a better view. Also the steps give some separation from the living area. I think raised pilothouse is what most people equate to pilothouse.

If I was looking for a 50' boat for cruising, I'd want a bit of a cross. I want my lower helm to be easily accessible from the galley and salon. However, I also want it to provide a good driving view and level and I want it to provide the space needed for a pilothouse. I also want at least 6'6" of headroom beneath. To me a Bayliner 4788 is a great example. Four steps up. Good view. Plenty of space for gathering and socializing. Plus also a flybridge to enjoy good weather.

The boat we're getting for the loop isn't a pilothouse. Among other things, it can't afford the added height. However, we're able to achieve much the same. Two steps up from the salon and shares the level with the galley and dinette. It has a good line of sight and it has space for controlling the boat. Not as much as a true pilothouse but plenty and can always use the dinette table. It also has a flybridge helm.

I contrast this with a Hatteras 60 MY. It is not designed to be driven from the lower helm. In fact, I haven't even seen one of the current version with a lower helm. They did show one in their offerings but it was just a steering wheel and a couple of instruments and controls stuck over in the corner. The vision was also limited by bow rise and the shape of the windshield. This has been an issue on all current Hatteras MY's so generally none have lower helms. Back to their SF background. So what they intend is for you to have a fully enclosed pilothouse on the flybridge. I don't personally like that. I don't like giving up so much of the flybridge and don't like not being able to drive in the open on beautiful days. I also don't like not being able to drive adjacent to the galley at other times. To some it's the perfect option and their ideal design. To us, it just doesn't work. It's not right or wrong, just preference.

Separation becomes a very personal issue. Some cruising couples like to have many separate areas to spend time, apart. Others like to always be close. Some cooks like privacy and solitude in the galley, not accessibility by others. Europeans were very disturbed when Americans wanted the walls removed from galleys. In the world of larger boats, your cook was in the galley and had to be separated from owner and guests. It's part of their formality and they extended it to smaller boats with only owners aboard. Galleys on any boat under a certain size would always be down. Well, US subsidiaries and brokers started complaining. So they started US builds with open galley on same level as salon. They figured we'll appease our American customers. They were shocked when Europeans started wanting the American version. One of the new trends is galley aft, just inside and adjacent to aft deck dining.

So, back to driving station. Some like privacy at the helm, a well separated pilothouse. Apart from meal preparation, apart from socializing guests. You can come sit with them sometimes if you'll behave. Spouse welcome but sit, read your book, and don't harass me.

So many factors. I equate the privacy for the captain in some ways to offices over the years. I had one great employee who always closed his office door when he was working on a project. I never closed my office door in my life when I was alone except for a phone call that needed privacy.

Last, I guess nighttime operation becomes an issue in helm locations and design. A separated Raised Pilothouse generally provides the ability to shut out lights from the boat interior. But then other arrangements could easily have a screen added or just don't allow lights to be turned on in the galley and salon if moving at night.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:48 PM   #56
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Be careful crossing the street.
When one flies a plane one learns to be careful of everything and to never say never about anything.

But being careful is not an antithesis to having fun. We enjoy the hell out of boating, flying, driving and even crossing the street if it's to do something cool on the other side. In fact being careful is part of the fun-- and the challenge-- just as it is for the engineers who design, manufacture and test our airplanes.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:50 PM   #57
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To me a Bayliner 4788 is a great example. Four steps up. Good view. Plenty of space for gathering and socializing. Plus also a flybridge to enjoy good weather.
I agree with a lot of what you said... What we found with the 4788's, however, was what you gained in the interior space, you lost in engine room space. We are just six months past our shopping and we looked at a couple of them. When we found that when even Bess (5' and barely above 100#) couldn't have good access to the engine "room", it sadly had to get marked off the list. Still, I like the design as a pilothouse boat, because if the above wasn't a deal-breaker for us, we'd have one.

Our Navigator's pilot house does cut into the overhead space in the master stateroom that lies directly below it. I bang my head a lot in there. It has a dropped ceiling above the bed that my head touches when I sit tall on the mattress. There is also a low corner I bonk on a lot. I hate it, but we had to compromise stateroom space for much greater living space. It works for us. :-)
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:01 PM   #58
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Not totally... Our pilothouse (not just a lower helm IMHO) is raised and serves as the galley as well

That galley in the pilothouse is a great idea IMO. I'm always having to run down the steps to get myself another water(beer). Plus your settee in the PH is nice and big. Very nice.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:09 PM   #59
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I agree with a lot of what you said... What we found with the 4788's, however, was what you gained in the interior space, you lost in engine room space. We are just six months past our shopping and we looked at a couple of them. When we found that when even Bess (5' and barely above 100#) couldn't have good access to the engine "room", it sadly had to get marked off the list. :-)
Hey Tom. Great boat! I always loved the Navigators!

Referring to the 4788 engine space access...

From the factory access to the engine space is problematic. You lift the stairs to the lower cabin, crawl through the "utility room", through a door, and into the engine space. It seems to be made for midgets.

That issue was resolved on the model by adding a hatch between the engines. On my boat the hatch is about 5' long and the full width between the engine hatches or about 24" I suppose. This was a popular enough modification that the factory started including it in 2003. I do not even use the old "door" to the engine room, preferring the more traditional hatch, which is as you know how pretty much all boats in this size range access the engine space. With this access method, the 4788 has approx the same engine space as most other boats this size with notable exceptions being the Defever 49 RPH, and my friends Nordic 48 which have almost stand up engine rooms.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:21 PM   #60
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I agree with a lot of what you said... What we found with the 4788's, however, was what you gained in the interior space, you lost in engine room space. We are just six months past our shopping and we looked at a couple of them. When we found that when even Bess (5' and barely above 100#) couldn't have good access to the engine "room", it sadly had to get marked off the list. Still, I like the design as a pilothouse boat, because if the above wasn't a deal-breaker for us, we'd have one.

Our Navigator's pilot house does cut into the overhead space in the master stateroom that lies directly below it. I bang my head a lot in there. It has a dropped ceiling above the bed that my head touches when I sit tall on the mattress. There is also a low corner I bonk on a lot. I hate it, but we had to compromise stateroom space for much greater living space. It works for us. :-)
Sounds like you compromised stateroom for engine room....

Every boat is a compromise and we all have to decide what. Headroom is a huge issue for me due to my height.
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