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Old 03-08-2013, 07:51 PM   #1
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Interesting Trawler in Anacortes

Never saw one of these before, with Yanmars, tri-keel with twin skegs and rudders. Great boat for Eric (get home engine included).

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:00 PM   #2
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She's a beauty. I like it.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:08 PM   #3
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Very interesting boat. Flare aft and the twin keels. Too much wetted surface from the keels that are too big. Would tend to trip on the outboard keel a-beam in breaking seas whereas she would quite likely lay down on her side w one keel. Upside down and a 90 degree list are two different worlds. But the ability to just beach her just about anywhere could make up for the oversized keels. And OMG the price!

Thanks for the thought hustler. Headed in the right direction for sure w full disp and not over powered. Those two features, especially together are biggies.Not as graceful as Willy though but my mom was Grace and many called her Gracie. ????? Give me $200K and I'll do more than dream.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:18 PM   #4
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7knts at 3050 RPM...wouldn't that be noisy? What would be the expected life of those engines...probably not much more than 3000 or 4000 hours? 5000 max if well maintained? Love the design, though...twin keels. I wonder why more manufacturers don't do this. Great Harbor, KK and Nordies...any others? She looks very much like a Nordie 47...similar hull shape.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:26 PM   #5
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That's been advertised in the back of Pacific Yachting for quite a while.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:28 PM   #6
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I looked into it last fall, and whereas it has appeal, it was actually located (and probably still is) down in California, San Francisco or thereabouts; too far for me to check out at the time. One of two built. But lots of appeal for sure.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:16 PM   #7
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Wadsosan,
I had a 35hp Yanmar that developed it's power at 3450rpm and I cruised it at 2750rpm regularly. That's 800rpm down from it's rated rpm and that's only 50rpm different than this boat. I'm sure it will be totally a non-issue. Riding motorcycles in the 60s we were used to 6000rpm British twins and along came the 10000rpm Honda's and we thought they were going to fly apart but they ran and ran and ran. And if you have a big piston pushing hard against a cylinder and a little piston pushing lightly against a cylinder twice as often which one do you think will suffer the most? I think it has more to do w heat and pressure than piston speed as long as piston speed is kept within safe range that is easy to maintain.

Noise? Things to consider. Big engine big noise. It's the force of the explosions that cause noise more or just as much as frequency of explosions. Put in another way the intensity of the work being done. And a lot of the noise (or even most) isn't coming from the engine itself but from the flexible things it's shaking like hulls, cabin sides, floors ect. Being inside a drum (the cabin) is actually being inside a sound box. Most of the things that vibrate in a boat (and amplify or otherwise transmit sound) are probably resonant more to low frequency sound than high. Also rubber engine mounts are better at isolating high frequency vibration than low and higher amplitude sound pulses make more noise.

Ever been inside the engine compartment of a locomotive? Me either but it's low frequency vibration (low rpm) and I'll bet you'll not want to go there w/o hearing protection. But basically I think it's the size of the engine or even more important how much power is being developed. Or how much force is going on.

So ... no I see nothing wrong w 7 knots at 3050rpm. I cruise my engine on my present boat 700rpm down from rated rpm and think it's rather quiet for a small diesel. And it's bad maintenance and other abuse that kills engines .. NOT rpm.
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:12 AM   #8
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Thats a Georgous boat!

Very nice!

From the exterior photos it almost reminds me of the 36 Willard pilothouse
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:04 AM   #9
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Too much wetted surface from the keels that are too big. Would tend to trip on the outboard keel a-beam in breaking seas whereas she would quite likely lay down on her side w one keel. Upside down and a 90 degree list are two different worlds. .
Good points.
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:25 AM   #10
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Would tend to trip on the outboard keel a-beam in breaking seas whereas she would quite likely lay down on her side w one keel. Upside down and a 90 degree list are two different worlds.
That's not a huge problem here on the Salish Sea.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:14 AM   #11
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That is a lot of accomodations packed into a 36' boat.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:49 AM   #12
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Wadsosan,
I had a 35hp Yanmar that developed it's power at 3450rpm and I cruised it at 2750rpm regularly. That's 800rpm down from it's rated rpm and that's only 50rpm different than this boat. I'm sure it will be totally a non-issue. Riding motorcycles in the 60s we were used to 6000rpm British twins and along came the 10000rpm Honda's and we thought they were going to fly apart but they ran and ran and ran. And if you have a big piston pushing hard against a cylinder and a little piston pushing lightly against a cylinder twice as often which one do you think will suffer the most? I think it has more to do w heat and pressure than piston speed as long as piston speed is kept within safe range that is easy to maintain.

Noise? Things to consider. Big engine big noise. It's the force of the explosions that cause noise more or just as much as frequency of explosions. Put in another way the intensity of the work being done. And a lot of the noise (or even most) isn't coming from the engine itself but from the flexible things it's shaking like hulls, cabin sides, floors ect. Being inside a drum (the cabin) is actually being inside a sound box. Most of the things that vibrate in a boat (and amplify or otherwise transmit sound) are probably resonant more to low frequency sound than high. Also rubber engine mounts are better at isolating high frequency vibration than low and higher amplitude sound pulses make more noise.

Ever been inside the engine compartment of a locomotive? Me either but it's low frequency vibration (low rpm) and I'll bet you'll not want to go there w/o hearing protection. But basically I think it's the size of the engine or even more important how much power is being developed. Or how much force is going on.

So ... no I see nothing wrong w 7 knots at 3050rpm. I cruise my engine on my present boat 700rpm down from rated rpm and think it's rather quiet for a small diesel. And it's bad maintenance and other abuse that kills engines .. NOT rpm.
Thanks. I can see your point and I didn't even think about motorcycles or that it's probably the similar engines in the Great Harbor 37' boats and from what I've been told, the GH's aren't noisy at cruise. Looks like they are non-turbo so power density is lower=long life with good maintenance? I believe that's generally true anyway.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:53 AM   #13
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Thanks.
Every now and then I feel the need to de-bunk some of the notions that high rpm smaller engines aren't bad and the idea that ther'e going to wear our soon is almost nonexistent. I'm not going to make many (if any) converts as most all just "like" a big engine loafing at low rpm. No amount of objective facts or persuasion is going to change the thinking of most but scope and perspective is golden.

Re the twin keels they carry a three strike curse as far as drag goes in addition to the other considerations.
1. Unless you minimize the surface area extra drag will result from the water passing over the surface of the keels. Skin friction normally called parasitic drag in the airplane world.
2. Interplane drag is (in the airplane world) the drag caused by air passing through the upper and lower wing .. compressing the air to some degree depending on the thickness of the wings and the distance between them and also the speed. It's worse on twin keels on a boat because water is not compressible.
3. and w/o the twin keels the water does not follow a straight line along the hull. Water is moving outboard in the fwd sections and inboard in the aft sections. The keels are usually mounted on the hull parallel to the C/L so ther'e obstructing the need for the water to flow inbd aft. More drag. And the water dosn't flow in a straight line inbd either. It tends to curve inbd in a non-linnear curve that would be difficult to predict and would be different at all other speeds. More drag.

Krogen wisely avoided most of this draggy stuff by minimizing the size (surface area) length and thickness of it's twin keels.

SS ... you're right the lateral stability problem would only manifest itself in really big seas. I've been there and am here pecking away at this keyboard because the boat had the ability to slide sideways quickly to avoid the capsizing capabilities of big breaking seas. Never again ... if I can help it. Even smallish bodies of water can produce dangerous seas but my episode was in Dixon Entrance and the seas were assisted by a SW gale coming up Hecate Strait. Hecate Strait is shallow.
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Old 03-09-2013, 01:36 PM   #14
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The freeboard is too high for that to be a nice looking boat....bad proportions.......This could be camouflaged somewhat with a different paint scheme.....

Lucander was "legendary" due to his espousing whacky ideas totally at odds with current generally accepted so called "rules" of physics.....

Those keels look very draggy to me, with wee tiny props lost behind them.
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:42 PM   #15
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"with wee tiny props lost behind them."

My Willard is a bit like that too. Any idea why they didn't put a 3-1gear in and a bigger prop?
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Old 03-09-2013, 03:14 PM   #16
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Any idea why they didn't put a 3-1gear in and a bigger prop?
Not much about this boat makes any sense......

These engines are rated at 55HP at 3000 RPM, the ad states that wide open they get 7 knots It should require only about 40HP total at the prop to push 34000 pounds at 7 knots.......Wrong engines, wrong gears, wrong props...who knows, for sure wrong hull shape.

I would not want to run twin Yanmars at 3000 RPM to get 7 knots, and burning 11+ litres per hour to do it.......
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Old 03-09-2013, 05:10 PM   #17
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Robert Beebe kind of dismissed Lucander in not so many words in the original VUP. Tad, I was hoping you would comment on this boat.
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:41 PM   #18
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Nils Lucander was known as the "Mad Finn", he was an inventor and prolific writer. He passed away in 1998 so involvement with this particular boat was perhaps minimal. Born in 1924, at the age of 14 he enlisted in the Finnish Army and was a decorated (and wounded)survivor of the "Winter War".

The trouble most had with him was that he would make claims that could not be substantiated. Such as saying that small twin engines (and his twin keel or "three-point" bottom) could be done for less cost than one single larger engine. It's obviously just not the case. He claimed speeds for displacement hulls somewhat above so called "Hull speed" (1.34 * sq rt of LWL) when we all know that lots of hulls achieve this, usually by applying more HP.

Anyway he was a character and we need more of those.......
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:12 PM   #19
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"Anyway he was a character and we need more of those......."

We got'um .... Perhaps I resemble that.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:09 PM   #20
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Here is a picture of it out of the water.
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