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Old 10-30-2015, 09:10 PM   #2621
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Two thumbs up to the pilot - Would not want to be the ground crew>\
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Old 10-31-2015, 05:35 AM   #2622
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Looks like a very pretty Awlgrip application. Angle of picture regarding boat bottom has my eye a bit confused. Do you have better (more square to transom) photo of bottom showing prop/keel?

Thanks, Art
Hey Art,
there is picture from the transom.
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Old 10-31-2015, 08:56 AM   #2623
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Yea baby - That is the cool looking set up I thought I recognized in previous slanted pict. Very nice; thanks for posting. - Art
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Old 10-31-2015, 09:22 AM   #2624
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That free hanging rudder seems not right to me. I'd prefer a the traditional shoe. Wonder what the reasoning was?

But as to the shape of the hull most trawlers should have come out of this mould. Perfect for many or even most but there are many that insist on the capability to go faster when the urge (note I didn't say need) arises. Too bad she is painted black so we could enjoy those very soft lines.

Most all wouldn't like the visability from the lower helm in the PNW and I wouldn't have her for that reason. She's in the same box as the Willard 36 sedan. But for those that rarely operate from the lower helm she's perfect. A boat among boats.
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Old 10-31-2015, 07:58 PM   #2625
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That free hanging rudder seems not right to me. I'd prefer a the traditional shoe. Wonder what the reasoning was?

But as to the shape of the hull most trawlers should have come out of this mould. Perfect for many or even most but there are many that insist on the capability to go faster when the urge (note I didn't say need) arises. Too bad she is painted black so we could enjoy those very soft lines.

Most all wouldn't like the visability from the lower helm in the PNW and I wouldn't have her for that reason. She's in the same box as the Willard 36 sedan. But for those that rarely operate from the lower helm she's perfect. A boat among boats.
Eric,
Agree with the free hanging rudder statement for the PNW. Considering that this is a ocean crossing trawler, it's all about officiency. That's where free hanging rudder is better. I worried about that design in the beginning, but then I noticed that there is close to 10" lower hang on the keel comparing to the rudder. If you run over a log, don't slow down and the log will happily clear the rudder.
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Old 11-01-2015, 12:15 PM   #2626
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Is that the angle you were looking for , or you were referring to an angle looking direct to the transom?
Active AND passive stabilizers? And the fins look substantial!


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Old 11-03-2015, 02:15 AM   #2627
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Active AND passive stabilizers? And the fins look substantial!


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Keith,
The fins are 6 sq feet each. The slower the cruising speed is, the larger control surface boat needs for proper stabilization. Dont forget that the proper active fin stabilization system is preventing the boat from rolling, rather than trying to recover it. So it kind of stops the boat from rolling before it starts rolling.
If I'm to do it again I will go with the next size up 7.5 sq f. With the 6 sq foot fins I get great dampening effect with 7Kns or faster. With 6-6.5knts still works well but i get much greater fin deflection. I know would've been better with larger fins.
The Passive stabilization system I use only for anchoring. it works fairly well. Again, if I'm to do it again with these too, I will make larger birds. Now the size on each side is 2' x 2' hinged in the middle (2X1hinged to 2X1). I will go to 3' X 2' without second thoughts.
I have not made backup "underway" birds yet...
The active fins are very reliable IMHO. I've been using them for about 8 years now - turn them on when I start the boat and turn them off before i shut down. they work when needed and don't move much when at all when flat. I have not notice any drop of speed before vs. after the install nor "off" vs. "on"
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Old 11-03-2015, 04:12 AM   #2628
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Considering that this is a ocean crossing trawler, it's all about officiency... If you run over a log, don't slow down and the log will happily clear the rudder.
I have to totally disagree with you here. IMO, efficiency is in no way more important than dependability and ruggedness in an offshore vessel. If you add a rugged steel keel shoe to your boat you may burn an additional one quart per day. Meanwhile you've added an additional hundred times more protection to your prop.

Regarding bouncing happily over logs, does that movie-scenario also apply to lines floating in the water, or rocks on the bottom in shoal waters, or even to the logs that the boat bounces over when traveling at 1 or 2 knots?

If this boat is planned to take offshore on extended cruises then you may wish to consider adding a strong shoe and perhaps even some ice horns in front of that as well.
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Old 11-03-2015, 05:20 AM   #2629
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I have to totally disagree with you here. IMO, efficiency is in no way more important than dependability and ruggedness in an offshore vessel. If you add a rugged steel keel shoe to your boat you may burn an additional one quart per day. Meanwhile you've added an additional hundred times more protection to your prop.

Regarding bouncing happily over logs, does that movie-scenario also apply to lines floating in the water, or rocks on the bottom in shoal waters, or even to the logs that the boat bounces over when traveling at 1 or 2 knots?

If this boat is planned to take offshore on extended cruises then you may wish to consider adding a strong shoe and perhaps even some ice horns in front of that as well.
I kind of agree with your statement that it will be more rugged and stronger.... Respectfully I disagree with the rest. The amount of fuel is not that negligent. Jeff Gerr's book explains that. But again, that's my personal opinion, and I don't feel like arguing about it is going to bring the truth out.

There are people that try to take care of anything that could possibly happen out there... Guess what? You can't. The people that try to do that stay tided to a dock and postpone their departure year after year.
I know my vessel. I trust my vessel. I know for a fact that the designer of my vessel Bill Garden had a little bit more experience then you and me combined. I know there is a chance to hit a container, or a net or free floating rope, or a tanker or..... I'm on my way. The people that worry can continue to try to account for everything. And then some.
It doesn't mean that I will take unnecessary risks, it means I'm more realistic about real treats, and willing to live with some small compromises. Free hanging rudder is something I have decided I can live with. Single engine in my opinion is the better option than twin but it needed a backup, and I designed and installed auxiliary with hydraulic get home.
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Old 11-03-2015, 06:16 AM   #2630
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I kind of agree with your statement that it will be more rugged and stronger.... Respectfully I disagree with the rest. The amount of fuel is not that negligent. Jeff Gerr's book explains that. But again, that's my personal opinion, and I don't feel like arguing about it is going to bring the truth out.

There are people that try to take care of anything that could possibly happen out there... Guess what? You can't. The people that try to do that stay tided to a dock and postpone their departure year after year.
I know my vessel. I trust my vessel. I know for a fact that the designer of my vessel Bill Garden had a little bit more experience then you and me combined. I know there is a chance to hit a container, or a net or free floating rope, or a tanker or..... I'm on my way. The people that worry can continue to try to account for everything. And then some.
It doesn't mean that I will take unnecessary risks, it means I'm more realistic about real treats, and willing to live with some small compromises. Free hanging rudder is something I have decided I can live with. Single engine in my opinion is the better option than twin but it needed a backup, and I designed and installed auxiliary with hydraulic get home.
Mitchell in the UK make commercial harbour master/pilot type boats, and they come with a weed hatch, with a removable lid, so that you can cut off a rope that's tangled around the prop from inside the boat.

There's some nice photo's here: Checking prop on Mitchell 31
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:37 AM   #2631
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Mitchell in the UK make commercial harbour master/pilot type boats, and they come with a weed hatch, with a removable lid, so that you can cut off a rope that's tangled around the prop from inside the boat.

There's some nice photo's here: Checking prop on Mitchell 31
Interesting - Hope no one "bumps" the engine while in gear when hands are down there. - LOL
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:55 AM   #2632
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Interesting - Hope no one "bumps" the engine while in gear when hands are down there. - LOL
I was thinking one of those tree pruning saws on a long pole might be the thing....
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:43 AM   #2633
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Prop cleanout ports are common on Downeast boats. The usual cut tool is a red handled knife (Lobsterman buy these buy the box) duck taped to a wood handle.
Hamilton marine sells Cleanout ports but many of the builders use the hull cut out piece set in a tube.
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:56 AM   #2634
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Sea Master 101,
In the pic in 09 the boat has a shoe .. that is the way Gardner designed the Sea Master is it not? Did a PO remove a shoe or was your boat built differently? I suspect the latter.
Re efficiency though the shoe allows a thinner rudder and the rudder being in the propwash the shoe may actually be more efficient. I have a big rudder that's just a metal plate about 5/16" thick. The shoe is a cast heavy bronze affair that dosn't have much drag.

And if you had a taller rudder w a higher aspect ratio the surface area could be less .. and the whole affair could be more efficient. Total speculation of course.
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Old 11-03-2015, 11:05 AM   #2635
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First boat I remember other than motor sailor with twin screws and one rudder.
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Old 11-03-2015, 01:37 PM   #2636
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First boat I remember other than motor sailor with twin screws and one rudder.
Bay view,
I'm sorry I did not get the connection here. What boat were you talking about?
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Old 11-03-2015, 01:52 PM   #2637
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First boat I remember other than motor sailor with twin screws and one rudder.
Should be quite efficient. Unless your'e turning significantly there's no propwash over the rudder. So the rudder will hardly be pulling the boat backwards at all compared to the usual setup.

Could actually turn better too. Turning to stbd use the stbd engine w it's prop almost on CL w full stbd rudder. There will be minimal fwd way (only using one engine (half power)) but all the propwash will hit the rudder fully and if you have 45 degree rudder deflection (like I do) the boat should turn sharp. And of course using the port engine in reverse will make the turn even tighter.

But the main thing I like is minimal propwash over the rudder and no propwalk.

SM I was going to ask that too.
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Old 11-03-2015, 02:56 PM   #2638
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Should be quite efficient. Unless your'e turning significantly there's no propwash over the rudder. So the rudder will hardly be pulling the boat backwards at all compared to the usual setup.

Could actually turn better too. Turning to stbd use the stbd engine w it's prop almost on CL w full stbd rudder. There will be minimal fwd way (only using one engine (half power)) but all the propwash will hit the rudder fully and if you have 45 degree rudder deflection (like I do) the boat should turn sharp. And of course using the port engine in reverse will make the turn even tighter.

But the main thing I like is minimal propwash over the rudder and no propwalk.

SM I was going to ask that too.
Efficient does NOT go in one sentence with two engines . Piece of mind, redundancy, etc does, but ignore that comment as I don't want to open that can of worms for N-time.
I would hate to dock a boat that has no prop wash over the rudder. even with twin. Rudder with proper "wing" section creates least turbulence and drag. It also creates the most "lift" (steer-ability). it is way better that flat piece of steel. I know that from experience as my previous 37' trawler had simple flat rudder. it did steer well, but not even close to what my current boat control feels like.
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Old 11-03-2015, 04:43 PM   #2639
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Sea Master 101,
In the pic in 09 the boat has a shoe .. that is the way Gardner designed the Sea Master is it not? Did a PO remove a shoe or was your boat built differently? I suspect the latter.
Manyboats, that was the way I envisioned it should be done when I thought "I know better". It was my own mock-up.. that I decided not to execute on it after weighting the pros and cons.
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Old 11-06-2015, 03:20 PM   #2640
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Check this thing out!

1922 50ft Gentlemen's Motor Yacht

Almost seems like a good deal... except it's wood on wood....
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