Insurance survey - what should I expect?

[Jeffrey S]

As a result of us "going all in" and putting our house on the market to live aboard full-time, we'll have to switch insurance carriers for our trawler (they require a house and a homeowner's policy). The new insurance company is wanting a hauled insurance survey. We've had the boat for 12 years and haven't been required to do one before.

So from your experience, what should we expect from the outcome of this? The boat is in great shape but I'm sure there are picky items and even changes in standards over the last decade. I've heard about metal tray shields needed under Racors near engines and a bunch of little things like that.

I've been recommended a surveyor from a broker and I'm currently getting a quote from him. Any other advice?

 

[psneeld]

There are insurance surveys where the surveyor has a very basic list of things to check depending on what the insurance company wants...even hauling isn't required by some insurance companies.

Surprising that if changing insurance companies they don't want a new valuation survey too if it's been awhile since the boats last survey.

Sit back and just take it as it comes because if it's a full safety and valuation survey...the surveyor could go whole hog and pick up on things just like a pre-purchase and every surveyor has their little quirks as to what they like and what bugs them.

Let's see what a current surveyor and insurance guys says...

 

[siestakey]

We are having one done next week

they did the top and inside 2 weeks ago when they showed I had the engine room open and was in the middle of doing some basic maintenance the surveyor asked a few questions and did not seem very knowledgeable and said he would be back when I did my scheduled haul next week

I did ask him if he saw any issues he said not as far as he could see

my boat is a 25 years old

 

[DavidM]

Try to find the most accommodating surveyor, one who will discuss his findings before he writes his report so maybe you can modify the silliest of his requirements.

But once it gets in writing and particularly in the hands of the insurance company, it is hell to change it. The insurance company will require every major safety item to be fixed and sometimes all of the preference items. It is the later that you want to minimize.

David

 

[Xsbank]

Maybe try and shop for another insurance company?

The problem with employing a "surveyor" is, none of them know your boat as well as you do. Why not just submit your maintenance log and your history of claims and see what happens?

 

[Underway]

If he shows up with an ABYC book and tries to tell you that your boat must meet the latest build recommendations for new boats...fire him/her on the spot. And if the individual is a SAM/NAMS/SCAMS member, that is very likely what you can expect. I found a respected naval architect, who is also a highly regarded surveyor, who is by choice, NOT a card carrying member of these "front" organizations. He knows the difference between applying new standards in regard to a survey on an old boat. And by the way, if you find something in a report that looks like it's inappropriate for the build date of your boat....raise holy hell with the insurance company and with SAMS/NAMS. There are some "certified" idiots out there. Your boat was deemed "safe" when it was built and if it's in good condition....it's still safe per the USCG. There is an insidious partnership between the hammer tappers and the insurance companies, and owners are paying the price. I speak from personal experience with two surveyors who posses a "certificate" and very little else.

 

[Jeffrey S]

I got a quote back for the surveying job - $1,060. It includes an out of the water survey and inside survey for the purpose of an insurance survey along with a valuation survey (which the insurance company is also requiring).

Does that seem reasonable? If this guy only knew we have a rating system for surveyors!

The insurance company isn't interested in any logs, bills, pictures, or personal claims. They want a SAMS certified surveyor to put something in writing, probably putting them (the surveyor) with some liability responsibility even though I'm sure his contact will disclaim any liability from me. I'd bet he'd have some liability with the insurance company for negligence if he missed something major.

 

[Xsbank]

Just make sure that you make it clear to the surveyor that you want editorial rights to his report before he submits it.

My understanding is, at least in this country, surveyors have the same liability as building inspectors have: dick. All you are paying for is an "opinion."

 

[psneeld]

Just make sure that you make it clear to the surveyor that you want editorial rights to his report before he submits it.

My understanding is, at least in this country, surveyors have the same liability as building inspectors have: dick. All you are paying for is an "opinion."

Doubt that will ever happen....if the guy signs it...it will say what he wants it too...opinion or not.

Now if he's a good guy who knows what you can negotiate prior to the final report...but once signed and a copy out there, changing it is a bigger issue for him.

 

[DavidM]

I don't buy the argument that if the boat was built in '06 (that is 1906 BTW) and it met all of the contemporary standards, then it doesn't have to have anything more done to it to be safe.

To state an absurdity in '06 boats didn't have to have solenoid shut off valves on the propane system (well they probably used coal in those days ;-). That was put into effect many decades ago and is a very good requirement.

Any insurance company that would accept '06 standards just isn't doing their job, which is saving themselves from claims but is also keeping us safe.

But having said that, there is lots in the current ABYC standards that I wouldn't bother doing to bring a boat up to the state of the art.

It takes good sense to do what is reasonable. The surveyor is your best arbiter of good sense. Now whether he has any or not is another question.

David

 

[High Wire]

Expect the ins co to want every safety deficiency and other deficiency noted in the report fixed via a plan and timetable.

 

[Jeffrey S]

No one has commented in the price yet - $1,060. Does that seem right for a 53' survey? The last one we had done (a buyer's survey) was in 2003 and it was significantly less. But that was nearly 12 years ago.

 

[Donsan]

I had a recent survey and it was $15/boat foot. Seems like you are paying $20/boat foot. So, it seems a little high to me.

 

[CPseudonym]

No one has commented in the price yet - $1,060. Does that seem right for a 53' survey? The last one we had done (a buyer's survey) was in 2003 and it was significantly less. But that was nearly 12 years ago.

I paid $480 for insurance survey on our 27'er. Surveyor charged per foot so $1,060 on a 53'er seems in the ballpark to me. YMMV

 

[Bay Pelican]

Just make sure that you make it clear to the surveyor that you want editorial rights to his report before he submits it.

My understanding is, at least in this country, surveyors have the same liability as building inspectors have: dick. All you are paying for is an "opinion."

Sorry to hear similar to the US.

 

[AusCan]

My original buyers survey had a number of deficiencies. I had some corrected before trucking the boat home, and corrected the rest after it had arrived.

I arranged for the surveyor to write up a followup survey, reporting all deficiencies repaired. He accepted photo's of the work he didn't personally see as proof it was done.
I then forwarded both copies to the insurance company.
All fairly painless.

 

[Underway]

I don't buy the argument that if the boat was built in '06 (that is 1906 BTW) and it met all of the contemporary standards, then it doesn't have to have anything more done to it to be safe.

To state an absurdity in '06 boats didn't have to have solenoid shut off valves on the propane system (well they probably used coal in those days ;-). That was put into effect many decades ago and is a very good requirement.

Any insurance company that would accept '06 standards just isn't doing their job, which is saving themselves from claims but is also keeping us safe.

But having said that, there is lots in the current ABYC standards that I wouldn't bother doing to bring a boat up to the state of the art.

It takes good sense to do what is reasonable. The surveyor is your best arbiter of good sense. Now whether he has any or not is another question.

David

ABYC don't set safety standards....the Coast Guard does. And it's categorically NOT the job of insurance companies to keep me safe. The 1906 example is indeed absurd. However, propane systems are a good example of where surveyors often run amuck. I had one surveyor who stated in my pre-hire interview that a propane bottle not in a sealed container would be a "must" upgrade item. I called SAMS and spoke to one of their standards guys....who told me his own boat was an older trawler and the bottle was behind the flybridge console in a drained, but not fully sealed area. He thought that was just fine. Then I called the insurance company who had no such internal "requirement". Then I called the surveyor and told him to get lost. The more of you who put up with their incompetence, the more this plague will persist.

The boating industry needs to take a look at the small aircraft system. An airplane certified in 1964 was deemed safe by the government, and as long as it's kept in good condition and meets any mandatory government safety directives in the interim...it's safe. Certainly not as safe as an airplane certified in 2014, but it's "safe"....end of story. Insurance companies provide coverage on old airplanes all the time and they don't have a cadre of hired (by you) guns arbitrarily imposing later standards.

By the way, my insurance company also says they want a "SAMS/NAMS" accredited surveyor, but when I called them with my NA/surveyor's name, they said they knew him well, and that the SAMS/NAMS requirement really wasn't. Find someone with a good rep is the bottom line. Chances are the insurance company will accept the individual whether a SAMS/NAMS/SCAMS member or not.

 

[twistedtree]

A few thoughts:

- Be sure it's clear that the surveyor works for you, not the insurance company, and more particularly that the report gets delivered to you, and only given to the insurance company when/if you decide. If the report looks good to you, then its a tool to use shopping around with different insurance carriers. If the report is a disaster, burn it and start again with another surveyor. The key is to not let an unfavorable report get into the hands of the insurance company because then it will never go away, and will probably get shared with every insurance company on the planet.

- I'd have a conversation with the surveyor about the type and purpose of the survey, and try to feel him out on some of these issues. I agree that in general a 1980 boat shouldn't be expected to be retrofit to 2014 new-build standards. But I think there are also exceptions where you would probably want to upgrade. The propane shutoff valve is a good example. It's hard to envision all these in advance, but through a discussion you may be able to get a feel for how he handles older boats with respect to newer standards.

- Ask for references for other similar surveys that he's done, and talk to the owners about the survey and how things went with the insurance company.

Good luck!

 

[BandB]

Choose carefully. Interview. Ask Questions. Treat it as if you were hiring a new employee.

That said, there are some excellent surveyors. Also, few problems with the true marine insurers. Especially when they are comfortable with the surveyor. They can distinguish the necessary vs. the would be nice. It's the inexperienced employee of an auto insurer that dabbles in boats who has the issues.

Having dealt with insurers of many different types of things over the years I know the frustration of having to deal with the wrong person. After a hurricane in Jamaica we were once told our rates were increasing 5 fold if we didn't rebuild a stronger building (capable of 150 mph vs. 135) even though we didn't own the building as the Jamaican government did. But also told we needed a sprinkler system there wasn't adequate water to support. Now explain the sudden need for sprinklers after flooding from a hurricane? So we switched to Lloyd's and kept our old rates.

 

[pilothouse king]

A client of mine just paid over $18.00 a foot up in Knoxville Tennessee for a "survey" that was more what I call a PRE-Survey which many surveyors do for from free -to a couple hundred bucks at most for a similar two page report. I've never seen such a minimal report in my life- with zero itemization of equipment! ZERO, and I mean from galley to batteries to engine room- to electronics..Have them? I don't know!!!

Said; "it rained the day before so I didn't use a moisture meter (probably didn't own one) but I tapped around with my hammer, it seemed good". Didn't bother to put water in the tanks to check the pressure system. Said the standing water in the lazarette "was probably from the cockpit being washed the day before"- and according to the owner apparently didn't know where switches were at when he got the recommendations of "Nav lights not working, spot light not working" (they do).

First he accidentally emailed me the survey he had done on the boat in 2011-it actually was even more minimal than this one, because on this one I personally told him areas I wanted inspected!! I called him and asked "why does your survey say the boat was blocked so didn't run engines, yet you told me you ran the engines tied to cleats for 30 minutes". Ooops. Oh, I love his sentence "bimini rail bent from inadvertent accident" -vs a accident on purpose? lol

Asked me if I knew a broker who had sent him to do several surveys for her. Happy to say, I've never met her. I shudder to think of the boats these clowns pushed. Doesn't subscribe to Soldboats.com either, so he just pulls figures out of his ass.

I've recommended the owner ask for his money back, and hire another surveyor and I'm going to report him to SAMS. Certified my ass! Oh-the photos? NO jpegs, just emailed us what appears to be a scanned copy of a PDF- all little postage stamp sized images, none labeled, some sideways on a page that may or may not be recent, as not dated either, but none of the 3 staterooms, or the 2 heads. None of the bottom from either survey!

PM me, and I'll tell you who this guy is. Unbelievable there's guys like this out there charging that kind of money. I emailed him a REAL survey of a same model boat, so he at least now knows what a survey should look like.

Had another boat surveyed yesterday by Bill Gladding in Jacksonville Florida. Now- HE'S A EXCELLENT SURVEYOR. You want to see thin guys with muscles wearing knee pads carrying the right equipment with them. Failed the **** out of the boat though, but we got our moneys worth- PLUS. Oh, I would like to do a shout out for Lambs Yacht Center for hauling, and cleaning the bottom of a 57' boat for only two hundred and Fifty bucks!! Buyer asked three times "you sure?" WOW.

 

[BandB]

I'd add one other thing on surveys. I've seen many of the agreements / contracts. Really weak. When you contract with someone it should say exactly what you expect to receive for your money, the deliverables. It shouldn't say "survey boat" or even "insurance survey." It should say what items are to be surveyed, what kind of reports you should get, and some indication of how you expect the survey to be conducted.

 

[psneeld]

Many surveyors I have dealt with seem have "canned" surveys on their computers now. It's basically their checklist and plug in...a big danger is missing something they forgot to type over if they are using one from a similar boat instead of the empty template.

Many have a copy (sample sections) on line for you to look at or will email one. Some are even putting in "industry" canned "terms of service" and the contract is really just an e-mail contact form that firms the "terms of agreement posted.

I think I have finally learned my lesson with surveyors and will seek one that had done a previous sistership or the exact same boat. Most of us learn from our mistakes and hopefully it would be the same in this situation.

 

[Jeffrey S]

I have to say, if I'm paying for the survey, sure, I'd like it done well and I'd like to have all the information. But I'm not looking for a long laundry list of minor things to fix in order to obtain a new insurance binding.

 

[Tom.B]

Look for it to be a standard fare. When we wanted to only change brokers and even keep the same provider, they wanted a survey. So we kept the same broker for the time being. So, it's a normal thing for insurers to ask for.

What they are looking for are the big safety and liability items like fire suppression, electrical issues (like GFCI outlets and such) and general condition of their risk. Keep in mind that they have NO CLUE what your boat looks like or its condition. They really need an objective set of eyes to understand their liability.

The price is in the ballpark. Rob Eberlee here on the Neuse quotes. $20/ft. With a repeat customer discount rate of $18/ft. I don't know if the process of an insurance survey is any different. Based on the price, I would say no. The document and result is probably the same. Just with less emphasis of "market value".

 

[Underway]

What they are looking for are the big safety and liability items like fire suppression, electrical issues (like GFCI outlets and such) and general condition of their risk. Keep in mind that they have NO CLUE what your boat looks like or its condition. They really need an objective set of eyes to understand their liability.

The price is in the ballpark. Rob Eberlee here on the Neuse quotes. $20/ft. With a repeat customer discount rate of $18/ft. I don't know if the process of an insurance survey is any different. Based on the price, I would say no. The document and result is probably the same. Just with less emphasis of "market value".

Sure, they're looking for the general condition of the risk. But an annoying aspect of that is the now almost standard request for a survey every five years....even if you've been with the same company for the previous ten years. In that example they absolutely DO have an idea of the boat's condition. They already have two, maybe three surveys on file and in the case of our boat...the trend is constant improvement and upgrades, not deterioration. This for a boat in the Great Lakes region that sits in a heated building eight months out of the year. And even if you're switching carriers or agents....presumably a survey is a survey is a survey...so a recent inspection should transfer between companies let alone agents.

As for insurance versus pre-purchase surveys, I'm seeing less and less distinction between the two. Surveyors are out to make maximum bucks and if they can spend maximum hours for a (formerly) piddling insurance survey, then they'll do so. If owners don't raise hell, the trend will persist and what amounts to a surcharge on insurance will keep going up.

As for market value...surveyors typically don't have a clue. As mentioned previously, they don't subscribe to sold price documentation, and on the Great Lakes, some of them might survey a larger boat once or twice a year. There are much better ways to establish value than relying on some bozo with a tap hammer and/or an (inaccurate) moisture meter.

($16/foot for a SAMS/NAMS certified incompetent in upper Midwest).

 

[psneeld]

Again only in my limited areas and experiences...I had a USCG retired friend that wanted me to help with insurance surveys...

Often what is an insurance survey...normally one that YOUR CURRENT insurer want's every so often...may be vastly different than a "survey" to become a new customer.

The insurance surveys I am familiar with are more like safety surveys of a business... much like Tom.B described above.

When switching carriers...much of the time it's like a new boat to you purchase..or pre-purchase survey with valuation. This is where the surveyors have a lot of latitude to really meet the insurer's requirements because as we have heard and I know the actual requirements they want are all over the map even though pre-purchase surveys have really solidified because of the industry's oversight by their professional orgs.

The price of the survey can be negotiated once the final product is solidified. But getting you , the surveyor and the insurer to all agree on specifics is a cluster and most of the time a pre-purchase is done as it is the generic one most insurance companies accept for issuing a policy.

If you need specific (different) things included in a policy than most other boaters...that will require the requisite phone calls and may even be outside of your chosen surveyors comfort range...as if furnishings, other valuables, etc..

 

[Moonstruck]

Just had an insurance survey last November. He was fairly thorough, and fair in his findings. It was an in and out of the water survey. I asked for and he sent the survey to me to look over before sending to the insurance company. He did point out a couple of things I wasn't aware of. I tightened some clamps while he was there. He gave the boat a well above average rating. Valuations are in the tank now, so can't do much about that. His charge for a 42' boat was about $700.00. Not a bad experience.

 

[O C Diver]

No one has commented in the price yet - $1,060. Does that seem right for a 53' survey? The last one we had done (a buyer's survey) was in 2003 and it was significantly less. But that was nearly 12 years ago.

My survey in December cost the original buyer about $20 per foot. Buyer backed out when he saw the Floscan in action (former sail boater). Contacted the surveyor 2 weeks later and requested to buy the survey. He wanted over 50% of the survey price for a copy. So we agreed on the price based on him walking me through the boat and pointing out all deficiencies on the survey, another sea trial, and a haulout inspection.

I found a number of things he missed (I'm nitpicky bordering on OCD). More importantly, I had him remove 2 items on his list that were normal for a Cummins engine. I don't fault him for the mistakes as I wouldn't expect him to be an expert on every make and model of the engine. While there were things he missed, none of them were significant safety wise, just more bargaining chips for me relative to needed repair /maintenance condition.

My advise to you, is do the survey with him. Don't quibble over the little things you may have overlooked (such as a bilge pump hose he thinks needs replacing) and thank him for pointing them out to you. Save your challenges for if there is anything major. To me, this is like getting a car inspection. Expect to need to replace the wiper blades going in as they always need to find something to prove they did a detailed inspection. If he's not interested in letting you watch, show him the exit.

Ted

 

[sum escape]

I paid $1100 in May when we purchased. Out of water survey, sea trial and valuation included (but this was not an insurance survey per se). Seems reasonable.

 

[windmist]

No one has commented in the price yet - $1,060. Does that seem right for a 53' survey? The last one we had done (a buyer's survey) was in 2003 and it was significantly less. But that was nearly 12 years ago.

I just had a pre-purchase survey done on a 42' boat for $15/ft in Anacortes, WA. Very complete including a sea trial and haulout, which I paid for separately.