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Old 12-30-2013, 08:06 PM   #21
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yeah...but these weren't little nuisance lawsuits...State Farm was hit by thousands of law suits that were settled, many others heard in court and won by the home/boat owners, some class action involving hundreds of litigants and it went both state and federal in being investigated and State Farm for violating RICO statutes.....

State Farm probably cleaned up their act...after Katrina...they had to....at least in the areas that were affected.

Further investigation has produced that State Farm is also being investigated in Illinois and New York State for violating RICO statutes....hmmmmm...I bet they are lilly white
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:27 AM   #22
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Psneeld,

I will only reply publicly once, and if you want to really dig into this, please PM me. No need for name-calling or mud-slinging on a public forum.

After Katrina there were lots of lawsuits against lots of companies, filed by lots of people. The large majority of these were filed by people who were upset that their homeowners insurance did not cover FLOOD. Flood coverage is excluded by homeowners insurance and is available as an optional purchase underwritten by the US government.

One well-known lawsuit was by a prominent politician who wanted State Farm to pay out for Katrina damages because he claimed the water that flooded his house was caused by wind and thus was not a flood. The definition of flood is when the ground won't absorb any more moisture regardless of the weather condition that caused the saturation of the ground.

Another great reason to read your yacht insurance policy, as different insurers exclude different things.
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:18 PM   #23
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In the USA, anyone can sue anyone. You don't have to have a case, you just hope the party you are suing will settle rather than try to defend itself.

Consider the woman who sued McDonalds because her coffee was hot and when she spilled it, it burned her skin.
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Yeah, it amazes me what low life's today will sue for.

Not to hijack the thread, but the McD's coffee suit had some merit, as the plaintiff received 3rd degree burns from the coffee.

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

Just as in the bashing of State Farm, the facts (in context and complete) often deliver the "rest of the story" that people at large never hear or choose to ignore.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:54 PM   #24
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Psneeld,

I will only reply publicly once, and if you want to really dig into this, please PM me. No need for name-calling or mud-slinging on a public forum...
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mudslinging or name calling in the thread?

I can't speak to Katrina, but I can with 1st hand knowledge, speak to hurricane damage in Florida during a spate of almost back to back hurricanes several years back (I worked through them).

Friends and co-workers were left with blue tarped roofs for months on end, while the insurance companies drug their feet, mishandled claims and attempted to deny settlements.
It wasn't until a few of the guys I know personally, threatened to lawyer up, that the companies stood up and took notice.

A friend of mine is an adjuster. He was called in to work the damage assessments. He was "instructed" to change a report to indicate damage caused by water vice wind, so the claim could be denied. When he refused, he was summarily dismissed....just sayin'.

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Not to hijack the thread, but the McD's coffee suit had some merit, as the plaintiff received 3rd degree burns from the coffee.

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

Just as in the bashing of State Farm, the facts (in context and complete) often deliver the "rest of the story" that people at large never hear or choose to ignore.
Yes it did, but we're still inundated with frivolous lawsuits in this country. In the end, it sticks it to all of us.
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:08 PM   #25
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All I can say is State Farm probably isn't as lilly white as people are trying to make it out to be.

They are/have been recently under the microscope in 3 states for RICO infractions.

We all know that corporate America would NEVER EVER do anything that even remotely smelled of illegal activity....
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:27 PM   #26
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Very true, and it's not limited to State Farm. Then there is also the flip side of the argument. There are a TON of fraudulent claims which in many cases cause the insurers to look more stringently at the insured. Claims such as property damaged or lost, that either never existed, or was trashed to begin with. Claimed "Losses" on items that people are over their heads on, and of course, the staged crashes and fraudulent claims. It's pretty aggravating really. Add to that the ambulance chaser (not intended to be a swipe at all attorney's. I have some very good friends that do a very commendable job in that field) that try to make chicken salad out of chicken caca...
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:37 PM   #27
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Get back on track ..
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:19 PM   #28
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Not to hijack the thread, but the McD's coffee suit had some merit, as the plaintiff received 3rd degree burns from the coffee.
Perhaps, but she should have expected hot coffee to be hot. Coffee is normally served hot and should be expected to be hot. It was her own carelessness with the coffee that caused her injury, not the fact that the restaurant served hot coffee (that she ordered and paid for).

I have a shop full of tools that could cause serious injury or death if used improperly. If I cut my finger off with a power saw that is not defective, is it the manufacturer's fault for selling a sharp saw or my fault for using it improperly

I think adults need to accept responsibility for their actions. Everything bad that happens to you is not someone else's fault.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:57 PM   #29
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Well! Looks as if the OP got a lot of good answers to his original query, and has something to think about.
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:56 PM   #30
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Rich Haynie Insurance, (206) 634-1770, is my agent. Delfin was built in 1965 and her policy costs less than 1% per year of her value. Ours is issued through Travelers, but I believe Rich deals with a number of companies.
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:17 PM   #31
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I also have a mid-80's boat. You didn't say what length your boat is?? If it's like mine, between 30-40 feet, you should at least look at Progressive. I have an 'agreed value' policy that I am really happy with. They also don't require a survey. Again, if you're boat is the right size, age and value, Progressive Boat Insurance may be a good policy to consider. Good Luck!!
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:04 PM   #32
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I also have a mid-80's boat. You didn't say what length your boat is?? If it's like mine, between 30-40 feet, you should at least look at Progressive. I have an 'agreed value' policy that I am really happy with. They also don't require a survey. Again, if you're boat is the right size, age and value, Progressive Boat Insurance may be a good policy to consider. Good Luck!!
NO!!!!! Do so at your peril should you have a loss. Make sure you read your Progressive policy, and note the many, many exclusions and limitations in the policy wording.

The Progressive policy is not much more than a modified auto policy. The policy has many parts that start "If you have purchased..." and the limits are substandard. Also, a company that is willing to insure the older vessel at agreed value without a survey is either crazy, or is prepared to not pay the claim based on the language in the policy.

A survey is under $1k including haulout and engine survey(s). It's good peace of mind for the older vessel owner, and may save you from serious damages later....

We don't represent Progressive any more- we did for many years, and chose to part company with them based on 1) their policy language, and 2) the availability of better policies.
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Old 01-01-2014, 12:17 PM   #33
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Pau, respectfully, that is a very aggressive response without any examples. give me specific examples of common coverages that a Progressive policy fails to cover, I'll check my policy to see if you're information is 'outdated', or accurate. You represented them, you should know specific examples. I will be happy to post here any language you direct me to in the contract. With that said, I can understand why a broker would decline to represent them anymore. Progressive doesn't need brokers.

Again, it's not for everyone. Certainly if we're talking about a $300K late model vessel or a 48+ footer of any age, it's not the right company. For a mid 80's, mid size trawler (Original Poster's vessel?), or a smaller late model vessel, it's a company to consider..... I would recommend that the OP Read the policy and investigate for himself.
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Old 01-01-2014, 03:33 PM   #34
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Pau, respectfully, that is a very aggressive response without any examples. give me specific examples of common coverages that a Progressive policy fails to cover, I'll check my policy to see if you're information is 'outdated', or accurate. You represented them, you should know specific examples. I will be happy to post here any language you direct me to in the contract. With that said, I can understand why a broker would decline to represent them anymore. Progressive doesn't need brokers.

Again, it's not for everyone. Certainly if we're talking about a $300K late model vessel or a 48+ footer of any age, it's not the right company. For a mid 80's, mid size trawler (Original Poster's vessel?), or a smaller late model vessel, it's a company to consider..... I would recommend that the OP Read the policy and investigate for himself.
Happy New Year!

Appreciate your response. I'm doing year end backups and such right now, but let me touch on some of the bigger detriments I see regarding Progressive.

In general terms, Progressive is not an all risk/all perils policy- the definitions and policy language are quite limiting ins scope vs a true marine specific policy form:
  • Progressive defines "you" as:
    a. a person shown as a named insured on the declarations page; and
    b. the spouse of a named insured if residing in the same household.


    Note the "and" connector. This means that both conditions must be met to have coverage. Any person operating the vessel must be named on the policy for coverage to be in effect. If a loss occurs while the named insured is spelled at the helm for a bathroom break or a nap, there is no coverage unless the watchstander is also named on the policy, or a "relative" residing in the same household. A true marine yacht policy will define "you" as you (the named insured), spouse, any family members, and anyone else you allow to use the boat without compensation.
  • "agreed value coverage" is a cost option vice standard coverage, and adds a host of complexity with regards to partial loss repairs. There is no defined depreciation schedule under either "comprehensive" or "agreed value" coverage. If not defined, Progressive defaults to ACV (Actual Cash Value) for loss settlement. Under a yacht policy, there are clear definitions regarding partial losses (what is covered, when and if depreciation applies, and duties of each party).
  • "personal effects" coverage is not defined in the definitions, and is a cost option. A yacht policy define personal effects in the declaration, and always included a general coverage amount in the base policy.
  • "Pollution/oil spill" is not defined in the definitions or policy wording. A yacht policy will have pollution liability at minimum matching the general P&I (Protection and Indemnity= maritime liability) coverage, to a maximum of $854,400 in accordance with the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 (latest amendment).
  • "consequential" damages are limited to the named perils of sinking, burning, stranding or collision to the insured vessel. A yacht policy does not specifically define consequential damage terms.
  • Liability coverage- any defense costs as a result of a lawsuit come out of the liability coverage and are not in addition to (on top of) the limit of liability. Most yacht policies do not include defense costs inside the liability limits.
  • Jones Act coverage is specifically excluded in the Progressive policy language. A yacht policy does not exclude Jones Act coverage.
  • Under all total loss scenarios, Progressive applies deductible. On true marine yacht policies, there is no deductible for total losses.
  • If you are in Mexico (assuming the policy is endorsed for navigation in Mexican waters), you cannot have any repairs done to the vessel unless the they are necessary to return the vessel to the US. Translation- if your boat is massively vandalized, but still operational, Progressive will not pay for repairs until the vessel returns to the US. A yacht policy that endorses navigation in Mexican waters will generally always allow repairs covered by the policy to be performed in Mexico.

The above is just scratching the surface. I find their policy language to have too many holes in it to consider for any vessel. There are too many wordings of "If you have purchased...." in their form; this gives Progressive broad latitude to sell its policy based on a low price, and not coverage. The client will generally jump on a great low price, and not realize that they have minimal coverage until there is a loss.

Adelaide, I'm onboard a 1989 boat, so I understand how older boats can mean more upkeep and maintenance; I would not recommend Progressive to any of my clients based on the above (and more). For about the same premium dollar, I can recommend a company that offers a true yacht policy (all risk, agreed value) and know that the client is properly insured. We routinely write yacht policies on vessels from the mid 70s to present.

Hope this helps!
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Old 01-01-2014, 03:54 PM   #35
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If you MUST have Insurance (which I don't believe in) then LISTEN and take the advice of a Insurance professional! He know's what he's talking about!!! Don't argue- just say "sir, yes sir" and take it as gospel. I'm serious.
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:03 PM   #36
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If you MUST have Insurance (which I don't believe in) then LISTEN and take the advice of a Insurance professional! He know's what he's talking about!!! Don't argue- just say "sir, yes sir" and take it as gospel. I'm serious.
I agree that one should take the advise of a professional (be it insurance or vessel brokerage) but I don't agree that one should take things as gospel.

Doing due diligence, as well as corroborating research, will help one make the best decision possible.

As I've just posted quite a bit of info about the Progressive policy, here is the current Progressive policy that I read and referred to:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf GetDMGContract.pdf (856.8 KB, 98 views)
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:54 PM   #37
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I agree that one should take the advise of a professional (be it insurance or vessel brokerage) but I don't agree that one should take things as gospel.

Doing due diligence, as well as corroborating research, will help one make the best decision possible.

As I've just posted quite a bit of info about the Progressive policy, here is the current Progressive policy that I read and referred to:
Thanks Pau,

Although many of the items (Ex. Mexico/Jones Act) don't really concern my situation, there are points that you make that I will take into consideration. Please post a similar cost 'Yacht policy' for everyone to compare and read for themselves. Then one can make an informed decision on the differences between them, and the risks associated with each.
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Old 01-02-2014, 03:37 PM   #38
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Thanks Pau,

Although many of the items (Ex. Mexico/Jones Act) don't really concern my situation, there are points that you make that I will take into consideration. Please post a similar cost 'Yacht policy' for everyone to compare and read for themselves. Then one can make an informed decision on the differences between them, and the risks associated with each.
Can do- the attached is the Travelers policy form. Take a look at how simple the loss settlement paragraph is relative to Progressive, as an example of how the policy wording can either confuse or help.
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File Type: pdf Yacht Policy.pdf (128.5 KB, 54 views)
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