Insurance or not?

[Benthic2]

AusCan,
One will RARELY make a profit on a policy....

If one is honest, they will NEVER make money on a policy. If you get a claim of X dollars, you must have lost a property worth X+ your deductable.

I am really stunned at how many people are using words like "investment, return, and profit" for insurance.

It is a service you pay for. When you pay someone to change your oil or paint your bottom, you are paying someone to do something you can't, or don't want to do.

When you pay your insurance company, you are paying them to do something you can't or don't want to do...namely, assume an amount of risk.

There is no profit. There is no investment. You are paying for a service.

 

[BandB]

You're original post said you would not consider buying insurance with .5% premium of hull value. I can understand, but that's pretty cheap, but I have no issue with going bear.

I think what he was trying to say was at that rate he'd buy but his wording sure left a lot to be desired.

 

[Seevee]

I think what he was trying to say was at that rate he'd buy but his wording sure left a lot to be desired.

Agreed... that's an awful good rate. That's $500 for a $100K boat. I'm paying more than that for a $40K boat, but fighting to drop it with my partners....

 

[BandB]

Agreed... that's an awful good rate. That's $500 for a $100K boat. I'm paying more than that for a $40K boat, but fighting to drop it with my partners....

It's 0.5% for some boat, but my guess is it's a more expensive than $100k boat, maybe much more expensive.

 

[FootballFan]

You're original post said you would not consider buying insurance with .5% premium of hull value. I can understand, but that's pretty cheap, but I have no issue with going bear.

Now that is a typo on my part!!!

Should have said - I would not consider NOT buying insurance at those numbers.

Sorry -

 

[dimer2]

You're original post said you would not consider buying insurance with .5% premium of hull value. I can understand, but that's pretty cheap, but I have no issue with going bear.

Of course you don't have an issue with 'going' bare'. I hit your boat...my insurance has to pay.

You hit my boat....my insurance has to pay?

Liability insurance should be mandatory IMO.

 

[FootballFan]

It's 0.5% for some boat, but my guess is it's a more expensive than $100k boat, maybe much more expensive.

Yes, my limited experience has been insurance costs are not linear to the cost of the boat.

And to save another post. I hope I don't get "bad post" points for my typo's. Sometimes my thoughts run ahead of my fat finger typing...

 

[Art]

In the name of common sense, common courtesy, common decency, common thoughtfulness, common ethics... to protect others from what may happen due you or your boat - - > Carry liability insurance!

 

[Al]

In the name of common sense, common courtesy, common decency, common thoughtfulness, common ethics... to protect others from what may happen due you or your boat - - > Carry liability insurance!

It has to be gospel when Art and I agree. In spades for his comment above

Al-Ketchikan

 

[Art]

It has to be gospel when Art and I agree. In spades for his comment above

Al-Ketchikan

 

[BandB]

It has to be gospel when Art and I agree. In spades for his comment above

Al-Ketchikan

Wifey B: Omg, I'm terrified as I agree with the two of you as well.

 

[Art]

Wifey B: Omg, I'm terrified as I agree with the two of you as well.

Don't be scared! Welcome to the choir!!

 

[smitty477]

Don't be scared! Welcome to the choir!!

Uh-oh .... I am agreeing with all of you folks as well.
Maybe time for a drink....

 

[rwidman]

If one is honest, they will NEVER make money on a policy. If you get a claim of X dollars, you must have lost a property worth X+ your deductable.

I am really stunned at how many people are using words like "investment, return, and profit" for insurance.

It is a service you pay for. When you pay someone to change your oil or paint your bottom, you are paying someone to do something you can't, or don't want to do.

When you pay your insurance company, you are paying them to do something you can't or don't want to do...namely, assume an amount of risk.

There is no profit. There is no investment. You are paying for a service.

This is correct.

 

[rwidman]

Yes, my limited experience has been insurance costs are not linear to the cost of the boat. ...

When you buy a boat, the cost is not linear either.

You don't need a big or fast boat to incur a large liability claim. You take a friend fishing in your jon boat, get drunk and crash the boat into a seawall or take a turn too fast, your friend falls out and drowns. His widow sues you for ten million dollars.

 

[smitty477]

EPA and state environmental organizations are way diffetent.

Again, I will say the pollution from most smallet vessels is almost impossible to clean uo.

And there are plenty of sources to verify that.

It appears that the overall summary spill log is now able to be consulted online. If you go to this site and click the year you will get the list of that years reported pill events - typically over 20,000 /year.
USCG National Response Center Home Page

But you would still need to go onsite to research a location or an individual spill to see if their was a cleanup, cleanup fine or post remedial fine (fine with no cleanup) for that specific event.
Only reason I know of this is when I have done research on a building I may have wanted tp lease of a home that I may have wanted to buy. It did steer me away from one potential large issue a number of years back.

 

[rwidman]

Just because the average policy holder loses, does not preclude it from being an investment. You get a return on your dollar if your dollar if you make a successful claim. You may make a profit if your claim is more than your total insurance premiums.
When buying hull insurance, it is like selling short. You win something if your boat value goes down.

No you don't because you've lost your boat. Insurance isn't going to pay you $100K on a $50K boat.

 

[rwidman]

So bottom line is insurance a scam. From my pocket to the CEO of the insurance company. If thay can convince legislatures (like auto) that the citizens should be required to carry insurance then that fills their pockets with cash. It will be interesting how many insurance companies bail out of Texss and Florida. Its all about money and profit.

You are way off base here and have no understanding of the purpose for insurance or how it works.

Please, get someone to help you with this.

 

[smitty477]

Smitty,

You're probably right, but I'd call it a penalty if you don't have it, but you still get your medical bills paid, regardless. But the premium is staggering compared to several years ago.

If it were insurance no matter how good or bad it would not typically have these characteristics....
- costs more if you have earned income , irrelative to the insurance coverage
- your insurance costs will go down if you have more kids (not the rate but the overall payments)
- you cannot determine the nature of what the policy covers.... whether that coverage applies to you or whether you desire it does not matter
- if you make decisions and take actions to limit your health liability your coverage is unaffected.
- you can either elect to pay for it or pay for nothing but there is no choice to select to pay for less

 

[smitty477]

No you don't because you've lost your boat. Insurance isn't going to pay you $100K on a $50K boat.

I know a number of folks that were able to maintain higher hull value on their boats then the typical real market value at the time of Sandy. When Sandy hit tow of these boats were completely lost and both were able to collect a fee larger than what the boat was worth on the free market - one was pretty obvious since it was for sale at the time for less than the insurance payment.
I am not saying it is supposed to work like that just supplying a real life sample from the NY area after hurricane Sandy.

 

[Seevee]

I know a number of folks that were able to maintain higher hull value on their boats then the typical real market value at the time of Sandy. When Sandy hit tow of these boats were completely lost and both were able to collect a fee larger than what the boat was worth on the free market - one was pretty obvious since it was for sale at the time for less than the insurance payment.
I am not saying it is supposed to work like that just supplying a real life sample from the NY area after hurricane Sandy.

That's SURE a grey area, and I could argue the risk of fraud would be greater than just not having any insurance at all.

Insurance is to make one whole from a covered loss... or suppose to. It never does, but the intent is not for someone to profit from it.

 

[smitty477]

That's SURE a grey area, and I could argue the risk of fraud would be greater than just not having any insurance at all.

Insurance is to make one whole from a covered loss... or suppose to. It never does, but the intent is not for someone to profit from it.

Not really grey at all.... an example
- They buy the boat for $100 in 2010
- over the years the stated value of the insurance drops a specific amount and so does the premiums
- so say in 2014 the stated value for the insurance and the premiums are now based on $65
- but in 2014 maybe the boat can only sell for $55 and that is before sales costs
- then Sandy comes in and the boat is totaled by they insurance company
- they now get $63.70 after the deductible

Of course if they had a total the week after they bought the boat it would have worked the other way around and the loss they experienced would have been more then their deductible

 

[BandB]

Not really grey at all.... an example
- They buy the boat for $100 in 2010
- over the years the stated value of the insurance drops a specific amount and so does the premiums
- so say in 2014 the stated value for the insurance and the premiums are now based on $65
- but in 2014 maybe the boat can only sell for $55 and that is before sales costs
- then Sandy comes in and the boat is totaled by they insurance company
- they now get $63.70 after the deductible

Of course if they had a total the week after they bought the boat it would have worked the other way around and the loss they experienced would have been more then their deductible

All this points out why insurers require surveys every few years on more expensive boats with better insurance coverage if you want stated value.

Still, the value of a boat is far more difficult to determine than is that of a car, for example. No two boats are identical and even on similar models there are limited sales to guide one. You could have five surveys done and they'd all come up with a different value. Even so, you see some of the same in cars. Car is insured and valued based on it's model and age. However, I've known people to own cars that were barely running and needed more work than their value. Perhaps book value was $5,000 but the true value of their car was less than $1,500. There are also people who regularly run insurance scams but eventually they can't get reasonable coverage. I knew of one person on the lake who couldn't buy a house or boat as he couldn't get insurance. He could only get auto at three to four times normal price. Seems he had a history of fires that various insurers were still investigating. They had not yet found enough to convict him but sure enough to not insure him.

 

[smitty477]

All this points out why insurers require surveys every few years on more expensive boats with better insurance coverage if you want stated value.

Still, the value of a boat is far more difficult to determine than is that of a car, for example. No two boats are identical and even on similar models there are limited sales to guide one. You could have five surveys done and they'd all come up with a different value. Even so, you see some of the same in cars. Car is insured and valued based on it's model and age. However, I've known people to own cars that were barely running and needed more work than their value. Perhaps book value was $5,000 but the true value of their car was less than $1,500. There are also people who regularly run insurance scams but eventually they can't get reasonable coverage. I knew of one person on the lake who couldn't buy a house or boat as he couldn't get insurance. He could only get auto at three to four times normal price. Seems he had a history of fires that various insurers were still investigating. They had not yet found enough to convict him but sure enough to not insure him.

Yes agreed- imagine how hard is was when I needed to get insurance on the cars that I built from scratch. Not so easy to establish a value.

 

[BandB]

Yes agreed- imagine how hard is was when I needed to get insurance on the cars that I built from scratch. Not so easy to establish a value.

Wifey B: I thought people baked cakes from scratch. I didn't know you could build cars from it too. Sure seems versatile, but I've never quite understood what it was. I went to Walmart and asked for scratch and they seemed very confused.

 

[Art]

Nothing's perfect... that certainly includes insurance.


For boats insurance is just a financial protector; it's not all warm and fuzzy!


It is a protector against total investment loss and/or complete loss of everything if you're found culpable in some large dollar marine problem.


Insurance is not to make $$$$ on but rather to pay $$$$ into - just incase.


Insurance is simply a costly chance to have a sort of deferment [protection] against chance of instant bankruptcy if/when things get out of hand.


Good on ya if your boat sinks and you get paid more insurance $$$ than what you paid for the boat and premiums combined. Good on ya that is if everything is on the up n' up.


If you're a crook and did things in a crooked way to get more $$$ than you should have... then your incorrect actions are costing me $$$ on my premiums to pay for your BS. In that case - DD!

 

[BruceK]

Wifey B: I thought people baked cakes from scratch. I didn't know you could build cars from it too...

I see the problem. Don`t start from scratch, buy prepared cake mixes, you get a free car in every box.

 

[psneeld]

It appears that the overall summary spill log is now able to be consulted online. If you go to this site and click the year you will get the list of that years reported pill events - typically over 20,000 /year.
USCG National Response Center Home Page

But you would still need to go onsite to research a location or an individual spill to see if their was a cleanup, cleanup fine or post remedial fine (fine with no cleanup) for that specific event.
Only reason I know of this is when I have done research on a building I may have wanted tp lease of a home that I may have wanted to buy. It did steer me away from one potential large issue a number of years back.

I didnt mean any more than to point out a huge possible payout by an insurance company that they cover you for very small premium. Someone did the math yet many here were making a big deal about spills that are insignificant for the most part in the eyes of regulators. Still never good to pollute. In our case, more often the result of an accident than negligent fuel handling for more than a gallon or so unless you are asleep at ghe pump handle.

In fact, on my policy, nearly a million in cleanup is offered as an "included" coverage where my $1000 dingy with $100 deductible costs $15. Do the math and risk taken by the insurance coverage. That is my point.

Note that the vast majority of those reports are land based.

After skimming thousands of 2010 reports, back in my heyday of salvaging, no reports rang a bell, in fact in the thousands of reports, I only saw one that was tagged to a "Yacht Service" which doesnt even prove it was a water based spill.

So if you owned a boat that carried little fuel and oil, it would be a coverage to take a good look at if contemplating only carrying liability.

Its included in mine for an unknown but built in cost, so I am not sweating it either way.