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Old 06-23-2010, 06:15 AM   #1
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Injection pump question

Last night I decided to change the oil in the injection pump. According to the manual, it should be changed every 50 hours or so.

I had 2 issues:

First, the pump I have does not match the diagram in the manual (see pictures). There is no drain plug at the bottom on my pump. It looks like it's on the side (C) and that the level plug is also on the side but in the rear of the pump (B). This would make some kind of sense*since bolt B is*higher than bolt C. The filler plug (A) looks like it's at the right place. But there is a little plastic cover beside it (D) that is mysterious. Tried to remove it gently but didn't succeed.

The second issue I had is a bit more worrying. When I removed the 3 bolts, no oil came out! Not a drop. Could it be that there is a leak somewhere and that the level of the oil is so low it's under the drain plug? Am I missing something here?

I decided to put everything back together and seek advice before I use the engine again. Any input would be appreciated.

-- Edited by Fotoman on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 07:17:03 AM
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:55 AM   #2
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RE: Injection pump question

Hiya,
***Any injection pump I have ever seen have had a drain as shown in your diagram.
*but I have only seen a limited # of 120's of a certain vintage (aprox 1973-1979) and NO 135's.
** Yes, if you removed B anc C and no oil came out do not run the engine again until you figure out what's up.* You may want to stick a piece of bent wire or solder in either hole.* The oil level might be just below hole level.* American Diesel is your friend.
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:02 AM   #3
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Injection pump question

RT,Maybe it's one of those pumps that eat engine oil and there's no oil in the pump unless the engine is running. Then you may "figure out what's up" by starting the engine and watching the oil pour out the hole but I wouldn't reecomend that as I aren't reealy up on doze enjuns. Better call American Diesel or maybe ask Marin to recite on his favorite engine.
Foto,
Does the manual describe a process for draining the pump? Perhaps Ford didn't put drain plugs in on friday afternoon.
Soooo many Lehmans on this forum you'll have it sorted out soon.


Eric


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 09:14:23 AM
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:29 AM   #4
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RE: Injection pump question

Just talked to Bryan at American Diesel. He's positive there's a drain plug at the bottom. I'm starting to think he's right BUT the bolt must be broken in the hole because I'm positive I didn't see anything that I could unscrew last night. I'll take a better look tonight. If that bolt is broken in place, that's going to be a whole different problem. I guess I'll have to remove the pump...

According to Bryan, the B bolt is an overflow for industrial use and the plastic cap is there to protect an ajustment screw that we should not mess with.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:21 AM   #5
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RE: Injection pump question

I'd like to know what's up with the dry pump myself.* I recently experienced the same thing.* Refilled and went on my merry way, but .... it's a constant nagging worry in the back of my mind.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:02 PM   #6
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RE: Injection pump question

If it's a MINIMEC on a 135 it is lubricated by the engine oil.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:17 PM   #7
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RE: Injection pump question

It is a Minimec but my engine is a 120.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:50 PM   #8
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RE: Injection pump question

Take a real close look to see if there is an oil line (tubing)*going from the pump (on the inboard side*or aft end) to a fitting on the block above the oil pan.

Hold your camera under the pump and take a picture looking upward so it shows the bottom of the pump as well as the engine block.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:53 PM   #9
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RE: Injection pump question

Hiya,
** Two things...get a small* cosmetic mirror so you can see "upside down and behind" things.*Make SURE*ther is no drain where there should be one.* *Remove overflow plug (C) and fill plug (A) and pour in about 1 1/2 cups of lube oil SLOWLY!!! or until "C" over flows*BUT not before inspecting with a mirror that there is, in fact NO drain on the bottom.* If no drain visible, wait 20 min. or so and repeat filling procedure.* IF you can get another 1-1 1/2 cups in you either have a MASSIVE leak or the pump is lubricated by the engine oil (self draining inject' pump).* Make sense?
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:54 PM   #10
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Injection pump question

Fotoman---

If your engine is an FL120, the plugs you indicated on your photo are not what you think they are. At least one of them isn't.* A is the fill plug, B is the breather plug which looks like it has been blanked off (which is fine if there is a breather hole in the pump somewhere else, usually in the middle of A, the fill plug), and C is the fill level plug.

The drain should be on the very bottom of the pump above the drive coupling for the raw water pump. On our Simms injection*pumps, which are essentially identical to the earlier Minimec pumps, the drain plug is the same size as the level plug (I believe it requires a 1/2" wrench).

As Rick said, if the engine is a Ford Lehman 135, there is no need to change the oil in the pump because it is lubricated by the engine's crankcase oil. I have never seen an FL135 so I don't know if its injection pump looks like a Minimec/Simms pump but without a drain plug.

I suppose it's also possible that the original drain plug on your pump stripped its threads (or the threads in the pump body, a common problem over time) and a previous owner replaced the plug with something else, like an Allen screw that does not protrude below the pump body. But I'm assuming you have inspected the pump pretty carefully so would know this already.

Here is a photo of the injection pump on our port engine. The drain plug doesn't show because of the shadow thrown by the lens shade on my camera but it's in the underside of the pump above--- or perhaps slightly forward of---*the label on the photo.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 02:00:17 PM
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:23 PM   #11
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RE: Injection pump question

This is getting interesting. Does your pump have a "sleeve" or*spacer of some sort between the bolt head and the pump body on that bolt labeled as "C"?

If you take the bolt out is it hollow with a pair of opposing holes that would line up with the center of the spacer ... if one exists?
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:46 PM   #12
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Injection pump question

Rick--- If you're asking about the pumps on our engines, the plug Fotoman labeled "B" on his picture, which is the breather plug, is hollow. The lube oil fill level plug, what Fotoman labeled "C," is not. It is identical to the drain plug in the underside of the pump.

As built, the Simms pump (and I assume the Minemec and later the CAV pump that were all essentially all the same thing) had a banjo fitting between the head of the breather plug (the "B" one at the rear of the pump) and the pump body. A metal tube was connected to the banjo fitting and ran down to a level about even with the bottom of the engine sump pan. This tube had a 360-degree loop in it about halfway down. The tube functioned as a breather and as an overlow.

On the direct advice of Bob Smith at American Diesel, I followed his instructions to remove the hollow breather bolt, pull the banjo fitting off of it, replace the banjo fitting with a stainless steel nut that had an inside diameter about the same as the thread diameter of the hollow bolt and a thickness similar to the banjo fitting, put a soft metal washer on either side of the nut, and screw the hollow breather bolt back into the pump. This maintains the proper clearance of the bolt inside the pump, the nut blocks off the breather/overflow opening in the side of the hollow bolt, and the soft washers prevent any oil entering the bolt from going any farther.

*
Bob said I could use a solid bolt in place of the hollow bolt, nut, and washers*if I could find one with the same thread pattern, but re-using the hollow bolt was simpler and faster and avoided the potential problem of using a bolt that stuck into the inside of the pump body too far.

The pump still needs to breathe, hence the need to drill a small hole in the center of the oil fill plug, which Fotoman labeled "A". It turned out someone had already done this on our pumps even though the stock breather setup on the side of the pump was still in place. So I didn't need to drill the holes myself.

I retained the banjo fittings and down-tubes after I modified both our pumps, but I don't foresee any reason to ever have to put them back on.

By the way, the cover that Fotoman labeled "D" in his photo protects an adjustment screw on the pump.* I can't remember what it adjusts--- it's called out in the FL120 operators manual--- but in any event, there's no problem taking the cover off if you want to see what the screw or whatever it is underneath looks like.* But if the engine is running fine, don't mess with*it*


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 03:01:18 PM
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:03 PM   #13
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RE: Injection pump question

I know full well what is on "your engines", I have owned and operated a few of them.

When I asked about "C" I meant "C" because it appears to have a spacer where a banjo fitting might have been located in the past but am not sure the OP knows what a banjo fitting is.

A banjo fitting on that location would have served as the drain back to the sump for those models of MINIMEC pumps that were supplied by engine oil. Some versions also accumulated fuel leakoff that was then drained when the normal operating level was exceeded. Those pumps were used on farm equipment where a small diesel leak on the ground didn't matter.
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:39 PM   #14
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Injection pump question

I don't think what you are wondering might be a spacer actually*is one. The level plug (C) is on the end of a short protrusion coming out from the side of the pump housing. So I think what you're seeing in Fotoman's picture*is that protrusion on the casting with the paint worn off.

Here's a photo I took off a discussion post*on the GB owners forum.* It shows the casting protrusion*that holds the fill level plug (C).

Also note that the pump in Fotoman's photo has a "cap" mounted above the pump's sideplate.* It would be mounted to the top of the spline that's on the side cover on the Minimac pump in the photo below between the word's "Minimec" and "CAV England."* On this engine, the top of the spline has been blanked off with a bolt.* My guess is that the cap mounted to this spline on Fotoman's pump cover is a breather cap for the pump, hence the lack of a hollow bolt, banjo fitting, and breather/overflow tube on the rear of Fotoman's pump.

Since the pump in the photo below does not have a breather cap on the cover, or a banjo bolt with breather/overflow tube on the*bolt (B)*at the rear of the body, it is probably*using a breather hole that's been drilled in the center of the fill plug on top of the pump.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 06:31:21 PM
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:55 PM   #15
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RE: Injection pump question

Quote:
Marin wrote:

I don't think what you are wondering might be a spacer actually*is one. The level plug (C) is on the end of a short protrusion coming out from the side of the pump housing. So I think what you're seeing in Fotoman's picture*is that protrusion on the casting with the paint worn off.

Yes, you are correct, it shows up much better on the gold version. I wonder if his has a socket head plug in the drain boss below "C" if it doesn't have a drain line inboard?

The same basic pump body has been used for decades by Petter, Lister, Ford, and so many others with variations on drive end, governor style, lift pump drive, and shaft extensions that it is nearly impossible to keep up with all the configurations.

Maybe it's worth spending some time to research the darn things and document all the permutations an owner might come across. The things are going to be around for another century by the look of it ...
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:08 PM   #16
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Injection pump question

Quote:
RickB wrote:The same basic pump body has been used for decades by Petter, Lister, Ford, and so many others with variations on drive end, governor style, lift pump drive, and shaft extensions that it is nearly impossible to keep up with all the configurations.
*
Yes, and to make things even more confusing there was acquisition and merger activity taking place at the same time.* So Simms was independent and then became a division of CAV and so on.

It would*probably take*a retired Englishman with a devotion to Ford of England diesels to research and write up all the different combinations of names, companies, and versions of something like this pump.

I'm sure there are other cultures who lean toward this, too, but perusing a used bookshop in the UK*devoted to things like boats or trains or planes or cars shows just how devoted to detail these folks can be.* There will be whole volumes devoted to the "Klapfor-Anderson Double-Acting Air Compressor as used on the Gresley A-Series Pacific Locomotives on the London and North East Railway."* And very often the author will manage to make the Klapfor-Anderson Double Acting Air Compresser seem pretty interesting.

Wonderful stuff, really, if you've got the time to wade through it all.



-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 07:09:34 PM
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:05 PM   #17
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RE: Injection pump question

Per Marin's comment if they (PO) replaced the drain plug w an a hex or square socket plug you could easily miss it. Per RTfirefly * * * ..take a look.

Eric Henning
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Old 06-25-2010, 06:38 AM   #18
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RE: Injection pump question

Ok, got the problem figured out. I didn't see the drain plug at first because it was... missing. The bolt came loose and just fell in the bilge. That means the pump has been running dry for a while. Ouch. I eventually found the bolt and from the look of it, it's been in the bilge for a little while. I just sailed 450 miles (more or less 80 hours) with the boat to bring it home. Best case scenario, the bolt came loose last fall... When I talked with Bryan at American Diesel, I asked him if it was possible that the pump would run without oil and not break. He said yes because the oil is there to reduce wear. He suggested I have the pump removed and have it inpected and possibly rebuilt. I put back the bolt and the oil and everything works fine for now. I might just take my chances and wait until the season is over before messing with that.
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Old 06-25-2010, 07:56 AM   #19
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RE: Injection pump question

My dock neighbor had his rebuilt and the shop made a new drain on the side of the pump to make oil changes easier. Just an idea if you do have yours rebuilt. I have the updated water pumps form American Diesel and now its a real pain to change the oil in the injector pump. I just dont have much room to get my hands in and to get something to catch the oil.
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Old 06-25-2010, 01:06 PM   #20
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Injection pump question

The lube oil in the injection pump is there to lube the pump's drive mechanism, the "camshaft" that operates the injection plungers, the shaft's bushings, etc. The injector plungers in their bores--- the things that actually send the shots of fuel to the injectors--- are lubed by the fuel they are pumping (one reason lubricity in the fuel is so important).

So while you did not do the pump any good by running it with no oil (although it's good to know they'll do that for awhile) this is why it contined to operate.

We have the Johnson raw water pumps, too.* One trick to making a bit more room between the pump and the bottom of the injection pump is to loosen the clamp screw on the water pump and rotate the pump counterclockwise a bit to cant it toward the engine block.* This moves the output hose a bit farther inboard and gives a bit more room to get at the injection pump drain plug.

We didn't do this, however.* Instead I*made a "funnel" of sorts from a section of water hose, the clear stuff with the red criss-crossed "threads" in it, and use that to get between the Johnson pump and the injection pump to catch the oil. Works great, and changing the pump oil now is no more difficult or time consuming than it was with the old stock Jabsco/Lehman pump setup.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 25th of June 2010 02:11:04 PM
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