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Old 12-21-2015, 03:04 PM   #41
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True...seeing which way the fluids went would be important...the Lehman puts out so little return that open air to the tank might be the path of least resistance for both....


Not a mod I would do as I also don't think the injection pump is as big of a deal as most....some have run it for many hours with no oil...others have run it with almost pure diesel as a lube.


It will likely need rebuilding for any one of many reasons....not necessarily a lube oil issue.


Anyone have any stats on what failures are common for these injection pumps?
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Old 12-21-2015, 03:40 PM   #42
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Anyone have any stats on what failures are common for these injection pumps?

I do not have numbers, only the experiences relayed to me by acquaintances in the UK who spent a good chunk of their careers dealing with the Ford of England diesels, including the Dorset.

One of the reasons the Dorset proved to be a monumental failure in over-the-road truck service, which is what it was originally designed for in the late 1950s, were weaknesses in the engine that were exacerbated by the very nature of truck operations--- widely and rapidly varying loads on the engine, constant rpm changes, and so forth. The engine's two greatest weaknesses according to these acquaintances are the head gasket, which is prone to blowing under high heat, high load conditions, and the in-line, jerk-injection pump.

Anecdotal problems with the pump included comments like "it needed adjusting all the time" to "it broke a lot" and so on. But these were mostly about the engine being used in hard service, like trucks.

Both the head gasket and pump weaknesses are mollified a lot when the engine is used in lower load, constant rpm service which is typical of industrial and agricultural service, which is what gave the engine a new lease on life after its failure as a truck engine. Marine service, is of course, in that same realm of operation as agricultural and industrial constant-condition use.

Interestingly this same engine also used a rotary injection pump--- its maintenance and overhaul are covered in the Ford of England Dorset diesel operation and shop manuals that came with our boat. But I have never encountered anyone with the rotary pump in a marine application and we've never discussed them with our acquaintances in the UK as we don't have them. So I have no idea if they represented any sort of advantage over the inline pump.

The inline pump is the single most expensive component on the Ford Dorset diesel. The last I heard an overhaul was about $1,000 and that was some years ago so the higher cost of labor these days has probably increased that cost.

I do not know statistically what the most common reason is for having to overhaul the pump. I was told a long time ago that plunger and bore wear was a cause as this gradually reduces the power of the injection "shots' going to the injectors and eventually this will begin to affect the engine's performance. As this kind of wear is affected by a lot of things--- how the engine is operated, fuel lubricity, and so on--- it's probably hard to impossible to attach a consistent hour number to the pump's TBO.
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Old 12-22-2015, 05:16 AM   #43
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Here is a picture of the injector pump with the hose connected to the overflow plug(?), and plumbed into the return fuel line.

Click image for larger version

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Old 12-22-2015, 08:19 AM   #44
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That's not the overflow plug, it is on the lower right.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:12 AM   #45
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Huh.

Here's another twist: On the Albin AD-21 engine, which uses the same type of injection pump, though obviously calibrated for a much lower horsepower and only two cylinders, the oil is supplied from the engine's lube oil system and overflows back to the crankcase, so no oil changes are needed. Just why CAV approved this system with Albin is a mystery to me, but there it is.

I contrasted the injection pump/governor setup on my AD-21 with the pump on a friends FL-120, and other than the number of cylinders and calibration, they appear identical.

I've still got the AD-21 (but not the boat - repowered with an Isuzu) and I could probably drag it out and take a picture if it's important.

Happy Holidays!

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Old 12-22-2015, 11:31 AM   #46
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Huh.

Here's another twist: On the Albin AD-21 engine, which uses the same type of injection pump, though obviously calibrated for a much lower horsepower and only two cylinders, the oil is supplied from the engine's lube oil system and overflows back to the crankcase, so no oil changes are needed. Just why CAV approved this system with Albin is a mystery to me, but there it is.
The injection pumps on many/most 135 Lehmans are set up that way.
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Old 12-22-2015, 03:34 PM   #47
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Here is a picture of the injector pump with the hose connected to the overflow plug(?), and plumbed into the return fuel line.

Attachment 47565
Based on the layout of our Simms pump (photo in my Post #25), the plug on the very bottom (barely visible) of your pump is the drain plug, obviously. The plug above and slightly forward of that on the side of the pump's "bell housing" is the oil level plug (right side of the photo). The higher plug on the aft side with the hose attached is, as you correctly say, the overflow plug (left side of the photo).

You say the other engine is not fitted with this hose. So is there an overflow down tube attached to the overflow plug on this pump? On our boat the original overflowl tubes were metal and had a single fairly tight coil in them about halfway down toward the engine's sump pan. They were open at the bottom and simply dripped into the pan.

The stock overflow plug itself is a hollow bolt with a banjo fitting between the head and the case of the pump to which the overflow down-tube is attached. This is why Bob Smith's instructions for blanking off the stock overflow plug are more than just putting a solid bolt in the hole.

Don't forget these engines were designed to sit more or less level in a vehicle, not slanted aft as they are in most boats. This is one reason the pumps tend to blow oil out the overflow plug because with the engine slanted aft, the normal level of the lube oil inside the pump can be very close to or even at the overflow plug depending on the downward angle of the engine.

So with regards to your hose, as the Russian fire official said in response to a question about the cause of the massive fire in the Moscow television tower years ago, "Is big mystery."
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Old 12-22-2015, 05:12 PM   #48
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The lube oil becomes diluted by diesel and runs out the breather pretty much constantly and makes a mess, that's why the drain and the frequent oil changes. You can remove the drain plug and replace it with a valve, then you don't have to worry about stripping the drain bolt threads nor will it ever again fall into the bilge. Plug the level-hole and just measure how much you need so it's not such a mess.
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Old 12-22-2015, 06:36 PM   #49
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Greetings,
Mr. X. I have considered a petcock in lieu of the drain plug on the minimec BUT the drain hole is so small (in the neighborhood of 1/4") I fear it would take forever to drain although it would indeed make changes easier. The only viable way I would consider a petcock would be to drill the hole larger to accommodate a valve with a larger orifice but that would mean pump removal to do a proper install.
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Old 12-22-2015, 06:45 PM   #50
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Greetings,
BUT the drain hole is so small (in the neighborhood of 1/4") I fear it would take forever to drain although it would indeed make changes easier. .
There is also the issue of clearance for the valve. If one has the 1" Johnson raw water pump there is not enough clearance between the top of the water pump and the bottom of the injection pump to install any sort of valve system in the injection pump drain hole. Perhaps there is sufficient clearance with the 3/4" Johnson pump, I don't know, but we opted for the larger pump on our engines.
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Old 12-22-2015, 08:13 PM   #51
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Our boat and manuals are from 1973 but the manual I scanned the page from off the Grand Banks owners forum is dated 1986.
So the mystery of hours for changing the injector pump oil remains. At 50 or 200 hours? Marin`s 1986(50) postdates my 1978(200), being the most recent pronouncement seen could be Lehman rethought it.
I change the pump oil along with the engine oil, at 100 hours.
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Old 12-22-2015, 08:21 PM   #52
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Hello RT - back before I got banned from the GB site for daring to contradict Bob Lowe, a very kind gentleman made a drain valve for me out of a ice maker valve with adapted threads that he turned on his lathe to fit right in the Simms pump drain hole. I will see if I still have it, I never used it as I sold the Simms pump (and the boat attached to it) so I could auction it for the food bank or, the same way I got it, I could give it away... wish me luck in the basement and I'll let you know if it turns up.

The small size is not an issue as the oil is very runny with the diesel content and it is always warm.
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:00 PM   #53
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I change the pump oil along with the engine oil, at 100 hours.
Unless your pump(s) are experiencing significant fuel leakdown, which is easily determined by examining (and smelling) the oil that comes out of it/them, I suspect a 100 hour pump oil change is just fine.

I would confirm that with an experienced, credible source however, as this is just my assumption.
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Old 12-23-2015, 07:40 AM   #54
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There is also the issue of clearance for the valve. If one has the 1" Johnson raw water pump there is not enough clearance between the top of the water pump and the bottom of the injection pump to install any sort of valve system in the injection pump drain hole. Perhaps there is sufficient clearance with the 3/4" Johnson pump, I don't know, but we opted for the larger pump on our engines.
I have the 3/4 Johnson and had no room....until I realized I could rotate the pump in the mount. Now there is plenty of clearance.
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Old 12-23-2015, 11:44 AM   #55
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Yes, the pump can be rotated a bit but we found this didn't really gain us much. We devised a method of draining the oil with no mess that works well with the minimal clearance.
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Old 12-23-2015, 02:27 PM   #56
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Thanks for all of the advice. I agree with Marin; Is big mystery. Even American Diesel had not seen anything like this. I think I can safely say I have a unique set up.........Now I need to fix it.

By the way I used the dust pan idea for this oil change and it worked well.

Charlie
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